Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Just go on with the demonization. That will help.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm just (metaphorically) taking a page from David Graeber's book on the anthropology of debt.

To our modern sensitivity, seeing parents give away their children to social services because they can't pay the bills or are being foreclosed and evicted from their homes is about as morally abhorrent as giving one's children to slavery, which was a common occurrence in ancient times. Back then, there were debt jubilees. This text describes just one of them. The creditors were shamed into agreeing by a moral outrage. The moral outrage then was to cause "countrymen" or "brothers" to be enslaved. The outrage now is the lack of "solidarity". But how far does solidarity extend today? Is there "European solidarity"? I'm sure Greece contributed money to the European disaster fund that was set up after the Elbe floods of 2002. Because of European solidarity. It offends to hear the likes of Jean Claude Juncker to describe the ongoing negotiations of the second Greek "bailout" as "European solidarity" with the addendum that the Greeks still have to show they deserve it.

For fuck's sake, I'll demonize JC Juncker if I feel like it. I already said he was an idiot in February 2010 and I stand by everything I said in that thread.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What the else has Graebers book to do with anything? No need for an argument ad hitlerum. bBck in the day, when Aznar compared S. Hussein to Hitler, did you cheer?

If anything is a genocide , nothing is. Is that so complicated?

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:09:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, it has to do with the fact that he points out the history of debt crises in which moral outrage hinged around things like enslaving your own people to pay for debts. If you want I'll look for his actual quote and his footnote, to see if he was referring to Nehemiah o something else.

What I'm saying is that it is a moral outrage that European "solidarity" allows what's going on in Greece (and to a lesser extent in Portugal or Spain - but we'll get there).

Look, I'm 35 years old and I've been a convinced pro-European all my adult life. I'm a hair's breadth away from changing that statement to "I've drunk the European kool-aid".

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are other moral arguments to be made about debt than "debts must be repaid".

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is no justification to use smears and to compare everybody to fascist or fascist supporter. Ia m pretty sure how to make the term fascism meaningless in ten easy steps is not part of Graebers book.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As you know I don't give a damn when you call "Godwin" on me.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I should care about that why?
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:30:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So we're even.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not? You are arguing in a purely nationalistic way anyway.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hah.

I'm attempting to expand the "us" to include all of Europe (at least). Which appears to be a non-starter in this here continent of ours. Despite "solidarity" being in the preamble of the Treaties.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your us has a sharp border to the north.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the French used to say "l'Afrique commence aux Pyrénées".

But it was them who said it.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When Germany murders, in cold blood, a full percent of the Greek population, then yes, that tends to create very sharp borders.

And I'll have none of your facile denial that this is a German project, has been a German project from day one, and that Germany and German intellectuals (and I use the term loosely) have been at the forefront of the immiseration of Greece.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:40:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
>When Germany murders, in cold blood, a full percent of the Greek population,<

Now that is just a vile fantasy.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that's the Russian experience with the consequences of the policies Germany is foisting on Greece.

Murdering someone by privatising his tap water and his hospitals kills him just as dead as a bullet to the back of the head, so I fail to see why the former should be considered more acceptable than the latter.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jake, will you freaking calm down? Your line of argument is not very helpful, and 100.000 Greeks won't starve to death, jesus. At worst they'll emigrate to Germany and live on the dole, which would have a certain poetic justice to it.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
they cannot get the dole in Germany unless they paid into social security there, so that is not very accurate.
by stevesim on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure these is some kind of basic welfare in Germany too, to stop unemployed people from starving to death. I mean, in Sweden we keep paying people, no matter how undeserving they are or even if they are recently immigrated from a country on the other side of the planet.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nope.  Schroeder got rid of that.
by stevesim on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Srsly? o_O

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there are residency requirements and/or social security payments that have to be made -  I believe at least 6 months of payments, not sure about residency requirements.

and, the payments have been drastically cut so that people cannot even afford to smoke if they are on benefits and cigarettes in Germany are pretty cheap.

by stevesim on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless you're suggesting that the Greeks should be applying for asylum in other EU countries.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude, if you cannot support yourself any EU country can deport you back to your country and be within their rights under "free movement" rules.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? The Stockholm police did that with Romanian gypsies and got rapped on the fingers.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe I have linked to this on several occasions
Right of residence for more than three months

The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

  • either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);
  • or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
  • or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;
  • or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

Residence permits are abolished for Union citizens. However, Member States may require them to register with the competent authorities within a period of not less than three months as from the date of arrival. Proof of registration will be issued immediately on presentation of:

  • an identity card or valid passport;
  • proof that the above conditions are complied with (see Article 9 of the Directive on the proof required for each category of citizen). Union citizens engaged in training must show, by means of a statement or any other means, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and for the members of their families to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State. This will be sufficient to prove that they comply with the resources condition.

Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit for family members of Union citizens. These permits are valid for five years from their date of issue.

Under certain conditions the death of the Union citizen, his or her departure from the host Member State, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of partnership does not affect the right of family members who are not nationals of a Member State to continue residing in the Member State in question.

It's free movement of workers (if that), not free movement of people.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
100.000 Greeks won't starve to death, jesus. At worst they'll emigrate to Germany and live on the dole, which would have a certain poetic justice to it.

a) Not how excess mortality from economic deprivation works.

b) Just to underscore the serious nature of the policies the Germans (and their friends) are imposing on Greece, you cite mass depopulation as a preferable alternative to the policies currently being implemented. How is that solution any different from the forcible relocation of a conquered population? Except that it's carried out by stealing the victims' hospitals and water, rather than by waving a gun at their face.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This isn't the 30's, nor is it third world Russia.

Speaking of population transfers, that's not a bug of the EMU project, it's a feature. Google "optimum currency area".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If population transfer at gunpoint is a feature of the EMU, then I want out.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No guns involved. But people got to move where the jobs are. Or they will be unemployed. That's life in a single currency. We see that in Sweden as well, where the inland and the north is being depopulated.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But we have a bunch of programs and transfers that keeps the depopulation slow and steady.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As has the EU, in the form of those regional support funds.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The policies currently being imposed on Greece are going to involve rather a lot of guns long before it gets to the point of mass depopulation.

That the guns will be applied to those who do not leave rather than those who do does not make it any less a depopulation at gunpoint.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:16:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about gunpoint...

El Pais: La CEOE pide quitar la prestación a quien rechace cualquier oferta de empleo

Feito ha abogado, además, por abordar cuestiones eludidas como el subsidio de desempleo, que debe ser retirado al beneficiario en cuanto no acepte la primera oferta de empleo. Ha remarcado que en el resto de países europeos es "inconcebible" que los desempleados cobren paro si han recibido una oferta de trabajo. "Como si es en Laponia", ha subrayado. Por otra parte, ha defendido que eliminar puestos de trabajo en las Administraciones no generará más paro, pues liberará fondos públicos para pagar a proveedores y que éstas puedan volver a contratar.
The [Spanish Business Owner Association] CEOE demands the withdrawal of [unemployment] subsidies from those who reject any job offer
Feito also advocated to tackle issues evaded [by the recent labour reform] such as the unemployment subsidy, which must be taken away from the beneficiary as soon as they don't accept the first job offer. He stressed that in the rest of European countries it is  "inconceivable" that the unemployed receive payments if they have had a job offer. "Even if it is in Lappland", he underscored. On the other hand, he defended that to eliminate jobs in the public administrations will not generate more unemployment, since it will free up resources to pay providers so that these can rehire.
Nothing against Lappland per se, you know, but there aren't even jobs for all the Finns there...

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are lots of EU states that don't require you to take the first job offer you get. And the employers in all of them say the same damn thing about the others.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, if you are forced to take such a job under any conditions, are you freely entering into your labour contract?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Freedom is such a relative notion...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Has ever a cleaner of toilets signed their labour contract freely, or only because they need the money badly?
by Katrin on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, even if they need the money badly they may be able to reject a particularly bad or inconvenient offer and not lose benefits.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Completely agree with that. I was just pointing at the relativity of the "free will".
by Katrin on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is that the Spanish patrons want to leave none.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:41:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lappland has an unemployment rate of about 2%. All skilled Greek miners are welcome. Hell, all unqualified Greeks who want to work hard for high salaries and feel like going to one year mining school in Sweden are welcome to Lappland.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This might sound ironic but it isn't: Where does one start to find more info on this? I know some younger people who'd jump at the chance if the pay is decent.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:47:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would guess Starvid refers to this:

Job Seekers - LKAB

Work with us

LKAB will hire 1,200 people over the next three years. That's almost two a day. We're offering exciting career opportunities in 30 companies in 14 different countries! And there are 200 different positions to choose from.

There may be talk of crisis in Europe and of unrest on the American market, but the reality in Sweden's northern orefields is a bit contradictory. LKAB's new main levels, the build up of extra capacity and the three new mine projects in Svappavaara combined with retirements in large numbers all contribute to our record recruitment needs. We may very soon suffer a lack of manpower resources. We will need an enormously broad skills spectrum ranging from various types of civil engineers and specialist positions as well as mechanics, mine workers and electricians.

Because LKAB is the dominant mining company.

Though I have no idea what the 2% number refers to, unemployment in Sweden is mostly calculated on regional basis, placing Lappland in both Norrbotten and Västerbotten, neither having a 2% unemployment or anything close to it.

It was btw mentioned on the news the other day that Greek workers migration to Sweden has increased significantly.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not only LKAB, but Northland resources as well. Same for all the associated support companies. Unemployment in Norrbotten is what I referred too. I've read somewhere that the latest unemployment numbers were 2.3%. On top of this, Sweden has a succesful history of labour immigration during the 50's and 60's, mainly from Italy, Hungary and Greece.

Anyway, here is information (in Swedish!) about the one year study program.

Job applications should be sent to LKAB, Boliden, Lundin Mining or Dannemora Mineral ("my" mine, yay). A command of Swedish is probably needed, or at worst, excellent English skills. And make no mistake: mining is no more the simple job where you just need big muscles and thick skull. The jobs are about operating very expensive and very heavy machinery, so previous experience of that kind is likely very useful.

Average pay for a miner who is 25-39 years old is 27900 kronor per month, which is 3000 euros. Foreign labour is sorely needed to combat miner wage inflation and the kinda militant unions. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 09:23:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PS. As mentioned above, not only underground workers are needed, but engineers, mechanics and so on. If you know people who are good at fixing heavy duty diesel engines or electric motors, well, it doesn't hurt at least sending some e-mails.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 09:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
Unemployment in Norrbotten is what I referred too. I've read somewhere that the latest unemployment numbers were 2.3%.

Svenskt Näringsliv disagrees. 7,8% vs a national average of 7,5% for 2011. The numbers comes from SCB.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well there you go. Possible was unemployment in Kiruna then?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That sounds more likely. Kiruna has what, 25000 inhabitants? (And is half the size of Belgium...) So with a boom in the mine and a relocation project that moves the town in order to make way for more mining they should have really low unemployment right now.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 22nd, 2012 at 08:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And BTW: "mining school" and similar "hurdles to the opening of professions and entrepreneurship" are now a thing of the past in Greece.  What Munchau said about the "categorical imperative"...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Swedish, Finnish or Norwegian Lappland?

Assuming it is Swedish Lappland, you loose benefits in Sweden if you turn down a job offer with a salary that is more then 90% of your unemployment benefits and there is also rules on what counts as a manageble distance (that grows with time). So no.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You never ever lose Socialbidrag. Not even if you're a drug addict who entirely refuse to cooperate with the authorities.

"Försörjningsstöd har utgetts till missbrukare för kostnader för bl.a. bostad, trots att han inte följt uppgjord behandlingsplanering enligt Regeringsrättens dom RÅ 2009 ref 103.[3] Missbrukaren anförde i målet att han om han inte fick försörjningsstöd skulle mista sin bostad och "måste driva runt på stan". Det finns en politisk önskan att ingen i Sverige skall tvingas sova utomhus, svälta eller känna sig tvungen att begå brott för att få pengar till mat."

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was talking about A-kassa.

But do note that that is a drug addict that is willing and able to appeal his case all the way. Not all druga addicts are.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Acceding or refusing medical treatment can't be used as a criterion for punitive measures, though.

Unless you want to skirt the edge of the Nürnberg Declaration on medical ethics. Which you usually don't want to do.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 05:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, is Canary Islands to Umeå a manageable distance by Swedish standards?

Because it is for the Spanish CEOE.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You spent much time in Greece?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More than in any other country bar Sweden. But it was a long time ago.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's improved, but still reminds me of Ireland 20 years ago. Which is still catching up with the core of ten years ago ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, it's going to get worse than both.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You should rephrase that as "I am arguing in a purely nationalistic way".

I've never seen Migeru being an apologist for Spain, though I've been around a LOT longer than you.
Whereas you are here quite happy to give logical seniority to German conventional wisdom over the laws of arithmetics.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 04:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pulling rank?

I have never defended german conventional economic wisdom. or shifted the blame to say the US or Spain or whatever other country. I just tend to point out that the global cultural dominance of certain economic dogmas can't be fought by indulging in nationalism.

I would like to achieve a bit more of a international left. Or at least european left.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have never defended german conventional economic wisdom.

Bwahahahahahah

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that isn't an argument either.
by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Look, I'm 35 years old and I've been a convinced pro-European all my adult life. I'm a hair's breadth away from changing that statement to "I've drunk the European kool-aid".

Hear fucking hear. Except I'm 26.

You know, this is the big disaster. Not mass unemployment in a few countries for a few years, or massive bond losses, or Europe looking like a bunch of silly squabbling children to the rest of the world. The big disaster is the destruction of the European dream. Caused, ironically, by a premature project to improve European solidarity and community through a common currency. Remember those days when Nazi arguments in European squabbles were totally totally out of bounds? It was just a few years ago. Can't people remember why Jean Monet et al even started the damn union anymore?

Maybe the original problem was that the EMU project was invented by people who had experienced the war, and implemented by people who hadn't.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with the EMU project is that it was conceived by idealists who believed in voodoo economics, and implemented by sadists who believe (or pretend to) in voodoo economics.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:40:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
Look, I'm 35 years old and I've been a convinced pro-European all my adult life. I'm a hair's breadth away from changing that statement to "I've drunk the European kool-aid".

Hear fucking hear. Except I'm 26.

yup, me too and i'm 60. destruction of a dream, for the basest of motives. makes me want to scream...

we had two european generations with remarkable little nationalism outside of football, now the next one will hear murmurs of geno-hatred from the adults rocking their cradles.

what a freaking waste. just when the eurozone was standing for something new too, worldwide.

like showing some spine with the pollution tax against airlinss right now. that's the EU i believe in, and am seeing under dire attack.

next time fix a common fiscal policy before a common currency.

massive, mortal DUH!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 10:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure Greece contributed money to the European disaster fund that was set up after the Elbe floods of 2002. Because of European solidarity.

Oh. Well, I hope the anecdote lightens up the tone again, instead of triggering off something about ungratefulness or so. No the Greeks didn't send money. They sent something worth soandso much. Er, something they could spare.

Think of it, there were wet people on the roofs in that cold winter and nobody knew what to do with the shipload of raisins from Greece... In the end the raisins were given to the schoolchildren of Hamburg. My husband still remembers them, a big bag of raisins was something poorer children hadn't had before in those times.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, raisins you only have to grow with your labour and your soil, whereas fiat Euros, well, you have to have all those Central Bankers shit a gold ingot.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just go on with the demonization. That will help.

Yes, yes it will.

Because Greece (and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland, and Italy) need to wake the fuck up and realise that Germany is not their friend. Germany is not behaving in a friendly manner. And that means that they need to start playing hardball against Germany. Beginning with selectively defaulting on foreign institutions, setting up barriers to German imports to match the German barriers against their imports, and generally behave as self-interested nation-states rather than as members of a political union.

Germany is destroying the European Union, and you are making bullshit mouth-noises about how the Netherlands and Finland are complicit, as if that makes it OK.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:51:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The grrek and spanish and irish etc elites want to thank you for your spirited defense of their interests.

Whatever happened to the "main enemy in the own country"?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My country is not in the EMU.

Of the countries that are in the EMU, Germany is the biggest part of the problem.

We frequently criticise the neoliberal morons of other countries, but those criticisms are less visible because those neoliberal morons lack such spirited defenders as the German ones have.

And, again, Germany is the biggest contributor, bar none, to the problem.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Top Diaries

Occasional Series