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Counter Reformation? | 35 comments (35 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 0)
Closing Vatican embassy 'a mistake' - The Irish Times - Thu, Feb 23, 2012
"While I believe that the change in status of the Embassy was a mistake and that it will in time be changed, the current polemic is distracting us from the real challenges of Church State relations and from the real crisis questions facing the Irish Church," he said.

Dr Martin said that, in the history of Ireland, Church and State have been intertwined "for the good and for the lesser good", adding that the two would be intertwined in Irish society for many years to come.

"Church and State are separate but not necessarily hostile realities. The challenge is to find a mature interaction which is neither that of being in bed together nor that of living as survivors of a hostile divorce, unable to converse," he said.

Mr Martin said that it was "very hard to underestimate how much the scandals regarding the sexual abuse of children and the manner in which it was dealt with by Church authorities has wounded the Church in Ireland".

"The fact that thousands of children were abused within the Church of Jesus Christ in Ireland is a scar that the Church will bear within it for generations to come. There is no way in which what happened to be consigned out of the way into the archives. The lessons of what happened and how it happened are a vital key to our looking forward to and building the future with hope."


Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Feb 23rd, 2012 at 05:04:03 PM EST
Re: Counter Reformation? (4.00 / 3)
"for the good and for the lesser good"

For the Bible, Dr Martin version:

Genesis 2:9:

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and the lesser good.

Psalms 23:4

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear not the lesser good: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

John 8:11:

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and commit the lesser good no more.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Feb 24th, 2012 at 02:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hear no evil, see no evil (4.00 / 3)
God's PR advisor must have been on a day off when those passages in the Bible were written...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Feb 24th, 2012 at 05:15:53 AM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 0)
Well, England was tight with the RC church for quite some time, but when the break came, in the 1530s under Henry VIII, it was pretty dramatic. That is impossible in Ireland, I take it?
by asdf on Fri Feb 24th, 2012 at 03:05:43 PM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (4.00 / 2)
It did involve going back and forth a bit, execution of people of the wrong faith, and an attempt to blow up Parliament. Are you suggesting something similar for Ireland?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Feb 24th, 2012 at 03:16:32 PM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 0)
We don't have a king with the balls...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Feb 24th, 2012 at 04:29:49 PM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 1)
When my Irish and Irish-American friends start getting all "United Ireland" with me, I, churl that I am, raise two points:

  1. Ireland couldn't get united when there was nothing but Irish there.  Clontarf was the last good shot, and there were Irish on both sides for the usual reasons.

  2. Do you think the Republic's "special relationship" with the Vatican might give the Anglicans and Presbyterians in the North pause about the benignity of union?
by rifek on Sun Feb 26th, 2012 at 07:23:55 PM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 1)
All nationalists perpetrate a myth of "Nationhood" implying their is one "pre-existant" people or natural agglomeration of communities united with one purpose. In reality virtually all national entities have been born of blood, often a great deal, and of an enforced unity between disparate groups. Ireland is no different in this regard, although the Clontarf era disunity was little more than rival clans and chieftains launching raiding parties against each others cattle and women and making alliances to suit their purpose at a particular point in time...

Paisley and his ilk have always claimed that "Home rule is Rome rule" even though their was a genuinely republican ethos to much of the independence movement and the state established thereby.  However a creeping Catholicism meant that there was a great deal of truth to the charge even though many could not see it - seeing only a natural affinity between Catholicism and Nationalism with no ant-Protestant intent. Even today there are very few protestants in the Irish Civil service with the requirement to be able to speak Irish being a natural barrier to entry for most.

One of the few benefits of the child abuse imbroglio has been to expose an unhealthily close relationship between the Catholic Church and state to the benefit of neither. Those few Catholic elements in the Iona institute and elsewhere who feel offended by the closure of the embassy feel it as almost a disestablishment of their Church in Ireland, and are blissfully aware of how offensive their presumption of a close relationship between Church and state is to non-Catholics and all who still abhor how the Catholic Church handled the child abuse scandals - right up to a couple of years ago.

Diamuid Martin is one of the few leaders to realise that things can never be the same again, and that if the Pope does visit in June (unlikely in my view) it will be on different terms to the last visit by John Paul II.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 27th, 2012 at 06:58:46 AM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 1)
There is no amount of denial people are incapable of when it comes to the dark depths of religion.  My best friend is Irish-American Catholic (although of his beliefs, he refers to himself as a Spinozan Catholic).  His mother is college educated and a retired school teacher, but she can't get enough of the Pope, regularly runs off to Rome, and won't listen to anything about the child abuse scandals.  It isn't just a matter of the shills at the Iona Institute playing spin doctor.  There are millions of laity like my friend's mother, and they're the real obstacle.
by rifek on Mon Feb 27th, 2012 at 08:55:02 AM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 0)
Remarkably, this seems to be more of a problem in the USA rather than in Ireland. Most devout Irish Catholics I know are frankly disgusted at their own hierarchy and none to impressed with the Vatican. They maintain their religious observance despite these misgivings and I hear no great clamour for the Pope to visit`- unless it is to apologise and start a new chapter on new terms.

A Chicagoan Bishop has just apparently snubbed the Irish prime minister over the Vatican embassy closure.  This may be good US Catholic politics, but in Ireland it just generates a big yawn.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 27th, 2012 at 11:04:05 AM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 1)
Frank Schnittger:
Even today there are very few protestants in the Irish Civil service with the requirement to be able to speak Irish being a natural barrier to entry for most.

Natural barrier? That's an odd way of putting it. Do they go to different schools where Gaelic is not an option?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 27th, 2012 at 11:46:49 AM EST
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Re: Counter Reformation? (none / 0)
Officially Irish is compulsory in all schools, but because the language has been more or less hijacked by Catholic Nationalists v. few prods take it seriously enough to gain sufficient proficiency for Civil Service access.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 27th, 2012 at 12:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Counter Reformation? | 35 comments (35 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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