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your focus on the opposition demonstrations - welcome as they are - are failing to reflect the dismal social, political and economic realities, which are... as the speaker from the NGO said, rapidly worsening.

I focus on the demonstrations because they represent some action to change these trends. Just describing them will only depress my audience here.

I suggest Milla is probably the best-organised part of this.

I think Milla is actually less organised, but has a wider pull and is more professional. What I mean is that liking someone on Facebook doesn't amount to much grassroots organisation, or activity apart from attending a protest. (In fact calls on people to organise and do more echoed from the mouth of several speakers.) Szolidaritás in contrast seems to have an actual grass-roots, as do some of the smaller groups like the HaHa students.

The Szolidaritas demonstration last week was a huge failure.

In what sense? If you mean that numbers didn't match Orbán's or even Milla's, then it was, though with the precedents, I feared even less people will turn out. If you mean that there was dissatisfaction with the length and quality of speeches (a sentence in the intro of the Milla protest, "speeches will be short and sharp and voluble", may have been in reaction to that), I wouldn't call it a huge failure.

a kind of gooey unformed mess of different groups, many of whom are contradictory.

Any new mass movement is by necessity a gooey unformed mess of different groups, uniting people who previously only knew the mental frame of reference of a narrower environment. But indeed the question is whether someone manages to get the people to overlook differences and get an idea of unity (even if illusionary), the same way Orbán achieved this. This seems to be the central message of blogger Varánusz, who is also dissatisfied and wants opposition organised in a party. (Then again, he is an LMP partisan, and I'm not sure that we need a single party as conduit of organisation.)

an education system designed in the early 20th century

Actually no. While there are elements that go back that far, the 'communists' implemented significant vertical mobility in their first decade or two (though later their new middle class began to protect their position the same way the prewar ones did) and extended elemental school to eight years, which was then undone in successive reforms after 1990 which made social selection much worse, while also eliminating quality where it existed.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 06:16:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't blame you for focusing on the positives, but I would have hoped to have seen quicker and more coherent development of opposition perspectives across a range of different issues.

Take for example HAT - Hálózat a Tanszabadságért. I'm a supporter - I've dedicated time and effort to help them. Yet it is only the Órban-Hoffmann reforms which unites me with a representative of, say, the Waldorf School Network, or the Hungarian Association of Private Schools. The debate is many miles away from a discussion about access to quality of education for all - which would contract any private school agenda, and would effectively mean the end for the elite grammar schools as they are. HAT and other opposition groups are not just apolitical, it is almost as though they are in isolation from shark-infested political waters. It means that the chance of a profoundly radical agenda is truly unlikely - or if it does happen, it might be something like educational vouchers for all - after all, that would be the most 'free' system, right? And maybe there would be a few members of HAT, who like the sound of that ultra-liberal solution?

Gyurcsány's Demokratikus Koalicio groupings are really prominent at all of these events, certainly were at the Szolidaritas demo. Now this group is quite open - it really, really does want to privatise healthcare... I think the LMP is right to engage with Szolidaritas, I've always thought self-organisation was a way to oppose this government, but there has to be coherence... if there is no coherence, if there is no opening up of some fundamental thinking about a new model of citizenship and economy, then it might be better in the long-term if political organisations were more directly involved, whether new or old.

At the risk of sounding a total killjoy, I think reclaiming the language of Hungarianness by wearing a tricolor is a start, but it's also the easiest bit. The hardest bit is confronting the Hungarian middle class with their Dorian Gray-type image, an image which is well-buried in the attic of the bourgeois psyche. For me the Hungarian opposition are often too cute and cool by half - damn, we want to be liked. And sure, we do like ourselves, as we consider ourselves nice, but this can be at the expense of responsibility, at the expense of the hard graft of making it really, really uncool to be a fan of Adolf Hitler or even Miklos Horthy, and identifying the way, as you say, class interests have reestablished themselves in the most bitter and toxic forms imaginable.

by car05 on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 09:09:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gyurcsány's Demokratikus Koalicio groupings are really prominent at all of these events, certainly were at the Szolidaritas demo.

They were the only ones carrying party symbols (based on the Hunger March, I suspect Socialists outnumbered them but were less intent on campaigning here). It would indeed be fatal if Varánusz1s wish would be fulfilled by DK rather than any other party. Interestingly, in the media (that is he non-right-wing media), the LMP presence was noted, due to the signature collection; some news even accused them of hijacking the protest, ignoring that Szolidaritás gave full support and collected signatures itself (at the southern end of the square).

BTW a note on LMP. Back when they obsessed about the 2006 dishonesty of Gyurcsány, I saw that as a naive liberal/bourgeoise attitude that completely misses the point of the "lies" speech (namely that he wanted to scare his fellow Socialists into supporting neolib reforms), the point that should be attacked in 2012 to prevent another run of the Shock Doctrine. So it came as a surprise that after the internal troubles, the kicking of the opposition roundtable, and the strategic declarations about aiming for the votes of disgruntled Fidesz voters, it came as a surprise that they went full-throttle about the social referendums.

I think reclaiming the language of Hungarianness by wearing a tricolor is a start

(IMHO it's an aside and I hope for another generation in a few years that rebels against the obligatory display of patriotism. This is not a region of Europe where an exclusive "we have been wronged/we have had heroes" view of history won't overlook horrible wrongs by ancestors and martyrs on the other side and thus won't lead to serious conflict.)

The hardest bit is confronting the Hungarian middle class with their Dorian Gray-type image

I only know that Dorian Gray is an Oscar Wilde figure who had eternal youth, so I'm not sure I get the association. If I guess right, then you mean the self-image of the liberal part of the middle class, in particular that of liberal intellectuals. If so I can relate to that very much: that's my family, with me between the stools: I mean, I am like them (speech, tastes, interests), but my political views and job environment have made me aware of how they always ritually demarcate themselves against the "uneducated" or even the 'parvenu' and seldom move in circles not part of their own (my) social class. (As I don't tire to say just travelling on public transport rather than by private car will give one a better perspective on the social consequences of economic 'reform'.)

On the other hand, being relatively young, I don't think the middle class in Hungary (or the rest of the former East Bloc) is uniform, and this has some reflection on the party landscape: though I wouldn't draw clear lines, I would distinguish at least the conservative heirs of the really old bourgeois and the gentry (like the inhabitants of Buda), then the more liberal heirs of those who were 'parvenu' a century or so ago, then the new middle class of the Kádár era, finally those who rose and had success in the small enterprise wave from the late seventies and now fiercely stick to their economic independence (resenting taxes, regulations and solidarity).

These segments of the middle class have different self-images, though all have negative views about other classes (and other sub-classes). This is sharply reflected in my company (MÁV) where employees are strongly differentiated according to education level and those with higher levels traditionally boss around those with lower levels even if not subordinates (with a few exceptions, predominantly younger ones).

And sure, we do like ourselves, as we consider ourselves nice, but this can be at the expense of responsibility

That's true and the low interest in (or fear from) participating in anti-fascist actions is a particularly sore point for me. (I wish I could join actions like this.) But is it enough or even meaningful to expect for the middle class to reform themselves? In Marxist terms, the middle class are the have-somes who want to protect the little they have. They will never act in ways like the have-nothings (like the organiser of the Hunger March or indeed like the youth joining the Hungarian Guard or the riots).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 02:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you understand the Dorian Gray reference - I'm trying to account for the dislocation between the flash and opulence of the Allee or Arena shopping plazas, with those early morning services full of people from Győr and the surrounding countryside heading to Budapest to do manual or semi-skilled labour for terribly low wages. Somewhere in this is a middle class which is strident and determined, and sees itself as somehow omnipotent.

the conservative heirs of the really old bourgeois and the gentry (like the inhabitants of Buda

These would be upper class, I expect... we maybe should leave these out of it as they're relatively small in number?

the more liberal heirs of those who were 'parvenu' a century or so ago,

Can't quite place these... are there really many around?

then the new middle class of the Kádár era,

let's say the state sector intelligentsia (and offspring) upon which the left in Hungary almost entirely draws its leaders

finally those who rose and had success in the small enterprise wave from the late seventies and now fiercely stick to their economic independence (resenting taxes, regulations and solidarity).

undoubtably, this is an important section. However, I'd also add a subsequent group, consisting of those who came of age around the time of the transition and, despite qualifications, may be less than financially secure, despite possibly being able to rely on parental resources for help. For me it is this group, now just hitting middle age, which has become politicised by the repetition of right-wing themes and which has the feeling of entitlement combined with resentment. It is possibly the first genuinely consumerist generation in Hungary. Dorian Gray doesn't get older; he looks great and carries on looking great, but his sins are depicted in the picture stored in the attic, just as the lifestyle, social irresponsibility and modus operandi of this part of the middle class are imprinted onto an inequal and troubled Hungarian society. Hope i'm not stretching the metaphor, but I think it carries some truth.

by car05 on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 03:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These would be upper class, I expect...

Part of them may be the poorer heirs of a onetime upper class (who became not-so-upper-class when losing wealth in Austria-Hungary times or in the Rákosi era), but I mean the culture and heritage that goes back to the really old bourgoise, the urban population preceing the big urbanisation waves.

Can't quite place these... are there really many around?

Yes. Hungary had a major wave of urbanisation from the first half of the 19th century to WWI, especially after the Compromise of 1867. In Budapest resp. its predecessors, the population grew from c. 50,000 at the end of Emperor Joseph II's reign to c. 250,000 at the time of the Compromise and then to 1 million by 1930. Most of the new urban population (former peasants, servants and bankrupted lower noblemen) became working-class, but part of it became middle-class bourgeois (the new bureaucrats, artists, engineers). The assimilated Jewish middle-class dates to this era, too (as does the parallel anti-Semitic 'tradition'). The children and grandchildren of these people would then look down upon and exclude those who entered higher education during the communist era from a peasant or working-class background.

let's say the state sector intelligentsia (and offspring) upon which the left in Hungary almost entirely draws its leaders

The Kádár-era educated state sector was a combination of those who rose socially in the Kádár era, and those from the previous urbanisation wave who could maintain or restore their middle-class status after the Stalinist era. I'm not sure BTW if "intelligentsia" covers all or most of the middle-class: it would appear to me that intelligentsia assumes some participation in public life, dealing with ideas (something even the upper-class can do); whereas you can be middle-class and spend all your professional and free time on issues not touching any of that. If so, I claim that the pre-WII middle-class maintained its domination of intelligentsia through the Kádár era, but the communist-era new middle class had more clue about the economy outside the ivory towers of the intelligentsia. These differences don't matter that much nowadays, though earlier there was some mapping to SzDSz vs. MSzP.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 03:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it helps if I say that most of the literature and film popular in the West that portrays East Bloc life in a negative light focuses on the experience of the intelligentsia with roots in the pre-WII middle class. For example the recent film The Lives of Others on the Stasi.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 04:12:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, when I have a bit of time, I'm going to do some reading up on the exact history of what happened and when in the Hungarian educational system. The elements that for me are most notable, seem to be pretty old.

I think one of the most damaging aspects is the way top grammar schools spoon off a certain crop of students at around 11 years old. I know this was going on in the late 1980s, and probably much earlier too.

One of the things foreigners note about Hungarian society is the way that bonds developed in school are kept and nurtured in a very intense manner. Many people make friends for life at school, but this seems to be far more rigid bonding... not just friends for life, but perhaps work colleagues for life! So these patterns formed at school seem to determine many social realities.

Among my acquaintances there are mainly ex-grammar school people, but I have also come across people who were consigned to the technical specialist schools, and these were bright people who for whatever reason, didn't match the teachers' expectations, or even had family members who embarrassed the powers-that-were at one point or another. Despite being intelligent, these graduates of the 'loser schools' - for that is what they were - have no expectation of degree level studies, whether in technical or non-technical subjects, and indeed operate on the assumption that they would be summararily rejected by Hungarian universities or even further education.

Many people therefore fail to be provided with basic study skills, but perhaps more importantly, they are conditioned to believe they are not capable of learning. I understand adult learning levels in Hungary are the lowest in Europe, and for this I blame the sink schools, and I also blame the premature funnelling of able students. The brutally selective and underfunded Hungarian education system dishes out ignorance and ineffective knowledge in equal measures. The fact that some people do OK eventually is something to marvel at, and may reflect parental intervention more than anything else.

It's amazing that Hungary has had three 'social-liberal' governments since 1990, that have done nothing to reduce selection, and the social inequalities resulting from this.

by car05 on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A question: which schools do you equate with "grammar schools"? Gimnázium?

One of the things foreigners note about Hungarian society is the way that bonds developed in school are kept and nurtured in a very intense manner.

Hm? As intense as the bonds of Old Etonites? Do you have specific kinds of professions in mind? I would think that there is a more broader phenomenon of people relying on "connections", with an emphasis on connections based on family relations.

that have done nothing to reduce selection

As I indicated, they (in particular the liberals who controlled the education ministry) have actually done a lot to increase selection, even if higher education was expanded greatly (at least for first years, but then selection came during the first year). Add to this the spread of private schools, which was pursued mainly by right-wing governments.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 04:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the level of elementary school education, I can't much comment on the situation in the last two decades as I don't have any experience, but on the mid-eighties situation I can: in 7th-8th grade I went to school in West Germany, and they were behind compared to the curriculum in Hungary in maths, physics, geography, biology and history; and I think only geography was taught on a higher quality.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 04:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I've heard apparently contradictory things regarding this. Some people have said that the maths at 16 years in the UK is like the maths at 14 years in Hungary. I've also heard of people starting school in Hungary, transferring to the UK, and then going back into the system in Hungary. I'm sure this a wrenching experience, and in this particular case, they complained bitterly at the rigidity and monotony of the Hungarian teaching methodology, by comparison to the project-based, student-centred approach of much primary education in the UK (which has incidentally incorporated certain aspects of the Wardorf-Steiner approach).

What we do know in terms of comparison is from the OECD's PISA ratings at 14 and 16 years, crude as they are. These show Hungary as generally average or below-average on all subjects, with no great advantage in either maths or science. I had a memorable conversation with someone once who was adamant that this was due to the inclusion of Roma children... there goes Greater Hungary...

I can well believe that Hungarian education starts off as excellent at kindergarten, is actually quite good at primary level up to 10, and then rapidly tails off for many (most?) students afterwards, in a sea of repetition, lack of depth, autodidact teaching and absence of genuine rigour. By the time they are 15 or 16 many students are disillusioned and unchallenged. As an ex-teacher I would have to concede that the introduction of school inspectors by the Hoffmann-Orban act is not something I find intrinsically offensive, as long as it is used to help the teacher develop. Oh, and fraud is absolutely endemic, with a thriving black market in false exams and third-party essays.

by car05 on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:40:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe we can agree that education is universally crap across borders?

Daily Mail [UK]: Maths 'too hard for students and dons': Universities drop subject from science courses

Universities are dropping maths from degree courses because students - and their lecturers -  cannot cope with it, a report warns today.

...

Universities are being forced to dumb down degree courses requiring the use of maths, including sciences, economics, psychology and social sciences.

Students are unable to tackle complex problems and their lecturers struggle to teach them anyway, it is claimed.

Unfortunately google searches for this stuff turn um the Mail and the Telegraph, and only the Daily Mail includes the bit about the university teachers not being able to cope either.

Here is the same story on EducationNews.org.

In any case, how can it be that every country is below average in the quality of its education?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is a recent article about Finland, which is supposed to be above average. Of course, they'd have to be way about average for everybody else to be below....
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 11:32:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, I missed this article. Pasi Sahlberg has been busy with his missionary work.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:38:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It shows the need for ReformTM?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 11:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I've heard apparently contradictory things regarding this.

I emphasize again that I was speaking about the situation 25 years ago, and don't know much about the present one first-hand. All I know that the curriculum did change, if only because politicians wanted all the communist-era school books replaced. (I was aware of the rankings in PISA studies, but I can't compare that to anything 25 years ago.) Teachers also count, and even if the old Prussian model of strict teachers doing instruction (that rigidity you describe) was not good and there were attempts to change that, I know at least that much that teacher quality decreased, too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 11:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW when I came back from West Germany, to start my highschool education, my main experience was that of being behind in some fields, in particular maths and physics, in spite of my parents' extra-school effort. On the other hand, I was ahead on languages, not to mention stuff not taught at all at home like civic life. I may have been lucky that I had some teachers at my highschool in Hungary, too, who encouraged discussions where students were encouraged to make analysis and express opinion like in some classes back in Germany.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 11:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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