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I'm not at all sure the 2m number is correct. My points are that it doesn't include Catalan speakers, and that the number of over-65s in the Occitan-speaking regions places it within the bounds of possibility.

As for INED, there is not much credence to accord to the survey that concluded on 526,000 speakers before correcting that number by 50%. The source quoted ("Qui parle occitan?" (pdf)) outlines the inconsistency of the survey (which left out several Occitan départements, including the one I live in). The sentence before the quote says:

Bref, du point de vue quantitatif, il y a peu à attendre d'une telle enquête.

(In short, from the quantitative point of view, not much can be expected from such a survey)

The article is not the source of the 2m number (which is not discussed on the Talk page). So it's true it's a mystery.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 03:41:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Arpitan language, or group of dialects was the primary language from the Lyonnais region eastwards, covering the Dauphiné and southern Burgundy, with pockets of locutors in Switzerland and Italy.

Currently there seem to be a negligeable number of young locutors in France. In contrast, oral transmission is still alive and well in Italy (it's an official language in Aoste) and in certain areas of the Valais in Switzerland.

I'm sure Redstar thinks the survival of the language in Italy and Switzerland is a Good Thing. I'm also sure he thinks its extermination in France is a Good Thing.

French exceptionalism.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 05:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but when shown by ASKOD the link, I followed it and was immediately drawn to the 2 millions figure for Occitan native speakers.

Further, I have a prejudice in that I take the term "native speaker" to mean that the language is an idiom that one grew up with and used extensively (thereby gaining fluency) in the regular course of the day (in the family circle, in school and with schoolmates, in other social interactions). Outward signs of this would be siblings addressing each other interchangibly in both idioms, for instance, sometimes not recognising they are doing so as they shift seamlessly, sometimes in mid-sentence, from one the the other, as my children do. In this sense, I am not a native French speaker for while I did grow up in a household parts of which were francophone and spoke it (in my case, my grandparent's generation on my mother's side, with whom I lived nearly every summer until a teen), it was not an idiom which I would normally speak at all, and certainly not with my siblings, schoolmates, parents et c. And by this token, even though you are absolutely fluent in french, neither are you.

So, when I combine this perspective of "native language" with the statement of the wikipedia entry "2M," I immediately think, erroneously as it turns out, that this must include Catalan, as there is no way there are 2M native Occitan speakers, in my sense of the term, in France and including everywhere else (the wiki entry also claims speakers in California, for instance, which I find exceptionally hard to believe).

Now, I do know a fair amount of people who have some fluency in Provençal and who are not very very old...they took it as an elective in school, or they learned it in associations many of which have been as you know created since Frédéri Mistrau's day. Also some corsican speakers. But these are not, to my mind, native speakers - they speak the language much as I speak the Spanish I learned in school, some well, a lot not so well. And, I knew two people who were properly native (in my sense of the term) speakers - they are both now dead.

Asking to be excused the circumlocutions here, I in no way meant or mean to denigrate the admirable aspiration to bring regional languages to life in France, these are good efforts, by in many cases good people, though in no way can the movements behind this admirable cause be described, in the main, as progressive, and indeed many of them are quite the opposite (as is often the case in movements which strive for a "return to the past," this comment not intended as being political - not all people yearning for re-invigoration of, say, Corsican as an idiom want to go back to those pre-industrial times when Corsican was the idiom on that island.

The question that comes out of this part of the thread (but which I did not ask) seems to be whether or not these idioms should get more active state encouragement, via subsidies or greater emphasis in the public schools. In the former, I think they are equally meritous as other private initiatives which seek government funding (youth organisations, municipal-funded or subsidised holiday camps, sports associations, e. tc.). In the latter, however, I think it would be a mistake to emphasise more than is already the case regional languages in the public schools, as one of the keys to the growth of a properly European (and not national) sense of citizenship is the ability to communicate with one another, in each others' languages which people in the EU do speak, and in this sense then I would say getting funding for establishing options in major languages not commonly taught in French schools, like Polish, Arabic, over Chinese.  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 06:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a fair question about the use of state resources. My take on it is that more state resources are needed for education. Telling kids they can't do Occitan as an optional third language at school because the budget has gone (to undeniably worthy needs) elsewhere, or that they have the choice of their parents paying for private education, looks to me like the kind of destructive arbitrage the right would carry out.

Re native speakers:

redstar:

the language is an idiom that one grew up with and used extensively (thereby gaining fluency) in the regular course of the day (in the family circle, in school and with schoolmates, in other social interactions)

That is exactly what I've been talking about for the >65s, with the exception of "in school" because that was in French.

What's more, there is a generation, now 40-60, that grew up in that environment and understand the language well, but are not in the habit of speaking it because it was understood during their childhood that they should speak French, where the "future lay". Not that entire age-group, obviously, much more the rurals among them, but I know a number of such people.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 08:06:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sami languages were repressed at least to the 70ies I think, with most success in the post-war period when societal service expanded and industrial jobs were plenty and well-payed. With beginning in the 80ies there was a shift in policy towards education in native languages and perhaps more importantly education in all sami-speaking schools (naturally with education in Swedish as well). Now even Ume-Sami with about 20 native speakers is a target of an effor to teach it so that it is not lost.

So roughly, there are old people who learned the languages before repression was effective, middle-aged who learnt a bit at home but were taught not to use it and used Swedish in the new environments they arrived in, and young who have learnt it from grand-parents and in the schools.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 12:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
Further, I have a prejudice in that I take the term "native speaker" to mean that the language is an idiom that one grew up with and used extensively (thereby gaining fluency) in the regular course of the day (in the family circle, in school and with schoolmates, in other social interactions).

At last, I understand how you could persuade yourself that there are no native speakers of Occitan.

If it is necessary to "speak it in school and with schoolmates" to be a native speaker, while living in a country where its use in school was banned for a century, then by definition, there are no native speakers.

Very neat, logically speaking.

Also very totalitarian.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 08:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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