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"native speaker" mean? Are you and I native French speakers, for instance?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Apr 10th, 2012 at 05:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You claim the "Occitan" category includes "Catalan", but that is not the case. Why are you changing the subject?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 01:05:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
claims two million native speakers.

If Catalan is not included, either the article has a far different definition of native speaker than is normally meant by the term.

There is in way 2 million native speakers of Occitan (not including Catalan), unless they are counted people who have learned a bit of it in school since it was re-introduced or know a little expressions (which even I know a few).

I think in this case, the wikipedia article is either false or higly misleading and will be looking for a more official source.  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 02:22:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Official" source? From the French anti-regional-language state?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 02:32:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To see what France understands as regional or minority languages, I went to the Council of Europe. I just checked that France signed but has not ratified, and therefore is not applying, the Council of Europe's Charter on Regional and Minority Languages which pretty much exempts France from the need to actually enumerate any protected languages. It signed with a declaration
Declaration contained in the full powers handed to the Secretary General at the time of signature of the instrument, on 7 May 1999 - Or. Fr.

France intends to make the following declaration in its instrument of ratification of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages:

  1. In so far as the aim of the Charter is not to recognise or protect minorities but to promote the European language heritage, and as the use of the term "groups" of speakers does not grant collective rights to speakers of regional or minority languages, the French Government interprets this instrument in a manner compatible with the Preamble to the Constitution, which ensures the equality of all citizens before the law and recognises only the French people, composed of all citizens, without distinction as to origin, race or religion.

  2. The French Government interprets Article 7-1, paragraph d, and Articles 9 and 10 as posing a general principle which is not in conflict with Article 2 of the Constitution, pursuant to which the use of the French language is mandatory on all public-law corporations and private individuals in the exercise of a public service function, as well as on individuals in their relations with public administrations and services.

  3. The French Government interprets Article 7-1, paragraph f, and Article 8 to mean that they preserve the optional nature of the teaching and study of regional or minority languages, as well as of the history and culture which is reflected by them, and that the purpose of this teaching is not to remove from pupils enrolled in schools on the national territory the rights and obligations applicable to all those attending establishments providing the public education service or associated therewith.

  4. The French Government interprets Article 9-3 as not opposing the possible use only of the official French version, which is legally authoritative, of statutory texts made available in the regional or minority languages, by public-law corporations and private individuals in the exercise of a public service function, as well as by individuals in their relations with public administrations and services.                                                        
The preceding statement concerns Article(s) : 1, 10, 7, 8, 9


There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 03:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
then, given the many inconsitencies of the wikipedia article (for instance, a language with "2.000.000" native speakers is in the same frame where that claim is made that four of the six dialects of occitan (representing the vast majority of said "native speakers") "severely endangered".

How can a language with 2.000.000 native speakers be severely endangered? There seems to be a bit of Marseillais exageration going on here; no doubt the wikipedia entry has been created by members of the regionalist movement, about as reliable in terms of facts as the putatively anti-regional language French state (though this latter fact is debatable as, it is also true, Breton, Provençal and Corse is taught in French public schools).

Noting in passing that while I did not live nearly as long as you have in the south, I did live five years. And I can count the number of times I heard provençal spoken in the regular course of the day (and not among a gathering of provençal enthusiasts, which I have also attended) on one hand. And I take the point to heart and find it admirable that there is such a movement, as long as it remains peaceful (which, as you know, as regards both Breton and, especially, Corse, is not always the case) for recognition of regional culture, but the simple fact of the matter is, and this is what Mélenchon was referencing, there have been attacks of terrorist nature on the part of partisans who militate for regionalism including language rights, and these attacks are certainly not progressive in nature (which Mélenchon also pointed out). The way forward is not the past, where people actually did speak these languages in the regular course of their day, though I note the supreme irony of being accused of "fighting again the battles of the 19th century" when pointing this out.

I also note the irony of a blogging community which, all the while rightfully jumping on the fact that European states and America take Anders Breivig style terrorism less seriously than terrorism of the islamic strip, itself turns a blind eye to terrorism in the name of regionalism, because terrorism there is. And the people I know, and I know quite a few (the Corsican community in Toulon and La Seyne is quite large and active), including my ex-father-in-law, who sympathise with the most offending of such movements, the Corsican one, are to a man on the right, not the left. Not one of the Corsican radical movements is progressive in nature.

Let's deal with the reality of such movements as they in the main act politically, shall we? And not an idealised form we would like to believe exists.  

I find it ironic that in  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 03:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It does not help recruiting people to the left when you tell people that a left-wing, progressive ideology requires the State to suppress their use of their mother language.

This discussion is still had in Spain, where otherwise sane people will argue Catalan schoolchildren are disadvantaged by a bilingual education.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:21:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wholeheartedly agree that this is a very politically relevant point in many places, and Spain is surely one such place.

France is not, in my considered opinion.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:26:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
How can a language with 2.000.000 native speakers be severely endangered?

Because, as those "native speakers" are doubtless older people who did in fact learn the language first or concomitantly with French as children, they are gradually disappearing. Which is why some younger people want to keep the practice of the language alive.

As for tarring the entire linguistic movement with the terrorism brush, that just doesn't hold. Corsica apart, there have been practically no attempts at violence in the Occitan or Breton regions for decades. ETA is (was?) a separate Spanish-based phenomenon. Support for regional languages != independentism.

redstar:

I also note the irony of a blogging community which

Why can't you stop sniping?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:26:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus, in Spain, support for regional languages has a broad left base, due to the fact that the authoritarian jacobin policy (linguistic and otherwise) was carried out by Franco's regime.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:30:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Curious use of the term jacobin in this context.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact is, in their consideration of people's differences, there isn't much distance between Jacobinism and Francoism.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That may be true, but of course there are far more points of diversion, and far more important ones, than this one similitude. Not to mention the vast historical remove.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in this context...

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why can't I stop sniping?

Because I'm not Jesus Christ, nor would I want to be. When the object of personal insult (I am not refering to you here or many other worthy criticisms, but read the thread, there are a number of unwarranted and frankly immature insults to be found) I do not tend to turn the other cheek.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's more you're not being nice to Bertrand.

;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha! I knew of all people you would catch that!

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to say I still find it exceptionally hard to believe there are 2.000.000 native Occitan speakers, so I looked more closely at the entry provided. I note that the vast majority of these "native speakers" (1.3M, follow the link from the Occitan page) are listed as Auvergnat speakers.

And what is the population of Auvergne? 1.3M, most of them not over the age of 65.

There is no way on earth that all of Auvergne speaks Occitan. In fact, of all the regions of France outside of PACA and Ile de France, Auvergne is a place I know well (Haute Loire, Puy-de-dome, Clermont, et c.), and I have not once heard Auvergnat spoken, so clearly not everyone is a native speaker there.

So, the wikipedia entry is, at least on this account, clearly not credible.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Catalan were included, the number would be far, far higher. See Wikipedia for numbers of Catalan speakers.

I don't find 2 million Occitan speakers an extraordinary claim. One may quibble about the meaning of "native speakers" -- those who learned it as their first language are now over 65. But the >65 population of the French regions where Occitan is spoken is well over 4 million. (Insee).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 03:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could have followed the footnote to the number of speakers in the wikipedia rticle...
_«De fait, le nombre des locuteurs de l'occitan a pu être estimé par l'INED dans un premier temps à 526 000 personnes, puis à 789 000,» ("In fact, the number of occitan speakers was estimated by the French Demographics Institute at 526,000 people, then 789,000") Philippe Martel, "Qui parle occitan ?" in Langues et cité n°10, décembre 2007.
How that turns into 2 million speakers in the article infobox is a mystery to me...

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 05:02:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not at all sure the 2m number is correct. My points are that it doesn't include Catalan speakers, and that the number of over-65s in the Occitan-speaking regions places it within the bounds of possibility.

As for INED, there is not much credence to accord to the survey that concluded on 526,000 speakers before correcting that number by 50%. The source quoted ("Qui parle occitan?" (pdf)) outlines the inconsistency of the survey (which left out several Occitan départements, including the one I live in). The sentence before the quote says:

Bref, du point de vue quantitatif, il y a peu à attendre d'une telle enquête.

(In short, from the quantitative point of view, not much can be expected from such a survey)

The article is not the source of the 2m number (which is not discussed on the Talk page). So it's true it's a mystery.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 03:41:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Arpitan language, or group of dialects was the primary language from the Lyonnais region eastwards, covering the Dauphiné and southern Burgundy, with pockets of locutors in Switzerland and Italy.

Currently there seem to be a negligeable number of young locutors in France. In contrast, oral transmission is still alive and well in Italy (it's an official language in Aoste) and in certain areas of the Valais in Switzerland.

I'm sure Redstar thinks the survival of the language in Italy and Switzerland is a Good Thing. I'm also sure he thinks its extermination in France is a Good Thing.

French exceptionalism.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 05:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but when shown by ASKOD the link, I followed it and was immediately drawn to the 2 millions figure for Occitan native speakers.

Further, I have a prejudice in that I take the term "native speaker" to mean that the language is an idiom that one grew up with and used extensively (thereby gaining fluency) in the regular course of the day (in the family circle, in school and with schoolmates, in other social interactions). Outward signs of this would be siblings addressing each other interchangibly in both idioms, for instance, sometimes not recognising they are doing so as they shift seamlessly, sometimes in mid-sentence, from one the the other, as my children do. In this sense, I am not a native French speaker for while I did grow up in a household parts of which were francophone and spoke it (in my case, my grandparent's generation on my mother's side, with whom I lived nearly every summer until a teen), it was not an idiom which I would normally speak at all, and certainly not with my siblings, schoolmates, parents et c. And by this token, even though you are absolutely fluent in french, neither are you.

So, when I combine this perspective of "native language" with the statement of the wikipedia entry "2M," I immediately think, erroneously as it turns out, that this must include Catalan, as there is no way there are 2M native Occitan speakers, in my sense of the term, in France and including everywhere else (the wiki entry also claims speakers in California, for instance, which I find exceptionally hard to believe).

Now, I do know a fair amount of people who have some fluency in Provençal and who are not very very old...they took it as an elective in school, or they learned it in associations many of which have been as you know created since Frédéri Mistrau's day. Also some corsican speakers. But these are not, to my mind, native speakers - they speak the language much as I speak the Spanish I learned in school, some well, a lot not so well. And, I knew two people who were properly native (in my sense of the term) speakers - they are both now dead.

Asking to be excused the circumlocutions here, I in no way meant or mean to denigrate the admirable aspiration to bring regional languages to life in France, these are good efforts, by in many cases good people, though in no way can the movements behind this admirable cause be described, in the main, as progressive, and indeed many of them are quite the opposite (as is often the case in movements which strive for a "return to the past," this comment not intended as being political - not all people yearning for re-invigoration of, say, Corsican as an idiom want to go back to those pre-industrial times when Corsican was the idiom on that island.

The question that comes out of this part of the thread (but which I did not ask) seems to be whether or not these idioms should get more active state encouragement, via subsidies or greater emphasis in the public schools. In the former, I think they are equally meritous as other private initiatives which seek government funding (youth organisations, municipal-funded or subsidised holiday camps, sports associations, e. tc.). In the latter, however, I think it would be a mistake to emphasise more than is already the case regional languages in the public schools, as one of the keys to the growth of a properly European (and not national) sense of citizenship is the ability to communicate with one another, in each others' languages which people in the EU do speak, and in this sense then I would say getting funding for establishing options in major languages not commonly taught in French schools, like Polish, Arabic, over Chinese.  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 06:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a fair question about the use of state resources. My take on it is that more state resources are needed for education. Telling kids they can't do Occitan as an optional third language at school because the budget has gone (to undeniably worthy needs) elsewhere, or that they have the choice of their parents paying for private education, looks to me like the kind of destructive arbitrage the right would carry out.

Re native speakers:

redstar:

the language is an idiom that one grew up with and used extensively (thereby gaining fluency) in the regular course of the day (in the family circle, in school and with schoolmates, in other social interactions)

That is exactly what I've been talking about for the >65s, with the exception of "in school" because that was in French.

What's more, there is a generation, now 40-60, that grew up in that environment and understand the language well, but are not in the habit of speaking it because it was understood during their childhood that they should speak French, where the "future lay". Not that entire age-group, obviously, much more the rurals among them, but I know a number of such people.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 08:06:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sami languages were repressed at least to the 70ies I think, with most success in the post-war period when societal service expanded and industrial jobs were plenty and well-payed. With beginning in the 80ies there was a shift in policy towards education in native languages and perhaps more importantly education in all sami-speaking schools (naturally with education in Swedish as well). Now even Ume-Sami with about 20 native speakers is a target of an effor to teach it so that it is not lost.

So roughly, there are old people who learned the languages before repression was effective, middle-aged who learnt a bit at home but were taught not to use it and used Swedish in the new environments they arrived in, and young who have learnt it from grand-parents and in the schools.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 12:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
Further, I have a prejudice in that I take the term "native speaker" to mean that the language is an idiom that one grew up with and used extensively (thereby gaining fluency) in the regular course of the day (in the family circle, in school and with schoolmates, in other social interactions).

At last, I understand how you could persuade yourself that there are no native speakers of Occitan.

If it is necessary to "speak it in school and with schoolmates" to be a native speaker, while living in a country where its use in school was banned for a century, then by definition, there are no native speakers.

Very neat, logically speaking.

Also very totalitarian.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Apr 12th, 2012 at 08:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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