Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
then, given the many inconsitencies of the wikipedia article (for instance, a language with "2.000.000" native speakers is in the same frame where that claim is made that four of the six dialects of occitan (representing the vast majority of said "native speakers") "severely endangered".

How can a language with 2.000.000 native speakers be severely endangered? There seems to be a bit of Marseillais exageration going on here; no doubt the wikipedia entry has been created by members of the regionalist movement, about as reliable in terms of facts as the putatively anti-regional language French state (though this latter fact is debatable as, it is also true, Breton, Provençal and Corse is taught in French public schools).

Noting in passing that while I did not live nearly as long as you have in the south, I did live five years. And I can count the number of times I heard provençal spoken in the regular course of the day (and not among a gathering of provençal enthusiasts, which I have also attended) on one hand. And I take the point to heart and find it admirable that there is such a movement, as long as it remains peaceful (which, as you know, as regards both Breton and, especially, Corse, is not always the case) for recognition of regional culture, but the simple fact of the matter is, and this is what Mélenchon was referencing, there have been attacks of terrorist nature on the part of partisans who militate for regionalism including language rights, and these attacks are certainly not progressive in nature (which Mélenchon also pointed out). The way forward is not the past, where people actually did speak these languages in the regular course of their day, though I note the supreme irony of being accused of "fighting again the battles of the 19th century" when pointing this out.

I also note the irony of a blogging community which, all the while rightfully jumping on the fact that European states and America take Anders Breivig style terrorism less seriously than terrorism of the islamic strip, itself turns a blind eye to terrorism in the name of regionalism, because terrorism there is. And the people I know, and I know quite a few (the Corsican community in Toulon and La Seyne is quite large and active), including my ex-father-in-law, who sympathise with the most offending of such movements, the Corsican one, are to a man on the right, not the left. Not one of the Corsican radical movements is progressive in nature.

Let's deal with the reality of such movements as they in the main act politically, shall we? And not an idealised form we would like to believe exists.  

I find it ironic that in  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 03:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It does not help recruiting people to the left when you tell people that a left-wing, progressive ideology requires the State to suppress their use of their mother language.

This discussion is still had in Spain, where otherwise sane people will argue Catalan schoolchildren are disadvantaged by a bilingual education.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:21:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wholeheartedly agree that this is a very politically relevant point in many places, and Spain is surely one such place.

France is not, in my considered opinion.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:26:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
How can a language with 2.000.000 native speakers be severely endangered?

Because, as those "native speakers" are doubtless older people who did in fact learn the language first or concomitantly with French as children, they are gradually disappearing. Which is why some younger people want to keep the practice of the language alive.

As for tarring the entire linguistic movement with the terrorism brush, that just doesn't hold. Corsica apart, there have been practically no attempts at violence in the Occitan or Breton regions for decades. ETA is (was?) a separate Spanish-based phenomenon. Support for regional languages != independentism.

redstar:

I also note the irony of a blogging community which

Why can't you stop sniping?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:26:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus, in Spain, support for regional languages has a broad left base, due to the fact that the authoritarian jacobin policy (linguistic and otherwise) was carried out by Franco's regime.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:30:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Curious use of the term jacobin in this context.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact is, in their consideration of people's differences, there isn't much distance between Jacobinism and Francoism.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That may be true, but of course there are far more points of diversion, and far more important ones, than this one similitude. Not to mention the vast historical remove.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in this context...

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why can't I stop sniping?

Because I'm not Jesus Christ, nor would I want to be. When the object of personal insult (I am not refering to you here or many other worthy criticisms, but read the thread, there are a number of unwarranted and frankly immature insults to be found) I do not tend to turn the other cheek.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's more you're not being nice to Bertrand.

;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha! I knew of all people you would catch that!

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to say I still find it exceptionally hard to believe there are 2.000.000 native Occitan speakers, so I looked more closely at the entry provided. I note that the vast majority of these "native speakers" (1.3M, follow the link from the Occitan page) are listed as Auvergnat speakers.

And what is the population of Auvergne? 1.3M, most of them not over the age of 65.

There is no way on earth that all of Auvergne speaks Occitan. In fact, of all the regions of France outside of PACA and Ile de France, Auvergne is a place I know well (Haute Loire, Puy-de-dome, Clermont, et c.), and I have not once heard Auvergnat spoken, so clearly not everyone is a native speaker there.

So, the wikipedia entry is, at least on this account, clearly not credible.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 04:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series