Fusion and Solar; Society and Investment | 57 comments (57 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Fusion and Solar; Society and Investment (4.00 / 6)

Two points:

A big part of the appeal of the neolib think is the seductive belief that problems will solve themselves. 'Let the forces that be work it out and we will have a self-organizing optimal equilibrium.' Which is similar to the beliefs of the ecology movement or environmentalism. 'So why should we undertake complex political, organizational, and technical work to get big things done, when it's all marred in 'inefficiencies', 'compromises', and 'corruption'? We can sit back and enjoy the show!'

Secondly, things do tend to get more and more complex and difficult (exponentially so). The leaps and nice things that we desire are getting more and more out of our reach. Up to the point where we seriously have to consider whether they are worth the effort.

Fusion is a prime example. As the MIT researchers said: they don't even know how many PhDs they'd have to churn out (fast) to get things going if the money was there. Ugo Bardi describes a three-to-five-years law of industrial research and how it pertains to tokamak research: "If a project produces no useful results in five years, then there are good chances that it never will." ITER is a basic research project not an industrial one but it is sold as such: energy for all! a few watterbottles of fuel per family! Sometime... in the second half of the century? Even if it was possible we could not afford to build and run such gargantuan machines (99% certain).

Also, it can be convincingly argued that tokamaks have such severe, inherent disruption problems that they will never [commercially] produce electricity. So why double down on tokamaks?

So instead of very high risk/somewhat high reward projects, how about some low-risk/high reward schemes? A min-max strategy. E.g. it has been posited that for all the money that goes into tokamak research they could give out free solar water heaters to every household. We should still support research, even the crazy stuff, but we should move on when things don't work. As for the big projects, I'd like to see some strategic buildout of vital infrastructure like rail or energy (efficiency). That kind of project doesn't necessarily need more research or gizmos. But care and attention are paramount. So how do we get those back? Someone has to strike gold and actually complete successful projects. If the benefits are there for everyone to experience, trust in competence will be built. And if people (collectively) undertake such projects themselves in their own lives it builds care and attention. Maybe this is the drink talking...

BTW: how do you like the "Raga Desh - Imrat Khan - 1989 Proms" recording? Still as good as in your memory of it?

_{Schengen is toast!}

by epochepoque on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 04:19:54 PM EST

Re: Fusion and Solar; Society and Investment (4.00 / 3)

Secondly, things do tend to get more and more complex and difficult (exponentially so). The leaps and nice things that we desire are getting more and more out of our reach. Up to the point where we seriously have to consider whether they are worth the effort.

One of the biggest issues is the fight against the internalized myth of infinite expansion (which gives us access to a belief in infinite complexity as well). Cultural inertia and propaganda are problems, yes, but I think a lot of the resistance to expanding sustainable energy systems and cutting back on nuclear specifically comes from the fact that said myth has to die for us to do so. It cuts very deep for a lot of people on this planet, and for many I think it's their primary myth for describing what it is to be human and why we are here.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 04:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fusion and Solar; Society and Investment (none / 0)

Honestly, I still didn't dare listen to it yet.

It's such a good memory, the temptation to relive it is strong, but the fear of spoiling it is strong too.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 04:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

S'cuse Me? (4.00 / 4)

Which is similar to the beliefs of the ecology movement or environmentalism. 'So why should we undertake complex political, organizational, and technical work to get big things done, when it's all marred in 'inefficiencies', 'compromises', and 'corruption'? We can sit back and enjoy the show!'

That's a very wide brush tarring a complex AND still powerfully diverse group of people and ideas.

nobody's perfekt, and all movements have their own mistakes and silliness... but come on. Are you one who understands the ecology in which this "civilization" lives that you can deride the one thread which brings a little health into the equation?

Surprised no one else picked up on this mistake. Guess i'll just sit back and enjoy the show.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 07:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: S'cuse Me? (none / 0)

Surprised no one else picked up on this mistake.

I did not see it as a 'mistake' so much as a question of balance, perhaps because I have had occasion to be annoyed by some aspects of the environmental movement myself. Which is not to say that I don't support saving the environment - to the extent we can.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 09:10:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: S'cuse Me? (none / 0)

Crazy Horse:

Surprised no one else picked up on this mistake. Guess i'll just sit back and enjoy the show.

i thought my snark meter had broken.

it's the far right religious fatalists (of divers national stripes) who think like that. Destroy us Jaysusss, we are such self-hating filth kick all our miserable sinning asses to kingdom come...

the more hollywood the better, for their taste.

it's fantasy to think we can turn it around institutionally until more individuals see the point of sacrificing at least some of our globegobbling lifestyles and do something about it so others can have a life.

institutions are notoriously turgid and serve as brakes on doing things too swiftly, but there's no time to take them on as they are, so politically well-defended and inertial.

a more direct, populist approach might work, but first more and more people have to dare wake up.

with all the alarms triggering, it's no wonder that's exactly what's happening, arab spring and all. it's just still too fragmented globally to do more than flare up sporadically, topple some tinpot who's overstayed his shelf life... then back to BAU, with more uniforms and religion than before.

unlike the 1%, whose private jets are welcome wherever there are ** hotels, golf, gambling and beaches.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 09:19:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: S'cuse Me? (none / 0)

i meant 6 stars, put 6 up there but only 2 came out, done got html'd i think.

doesn't make sense with 2 stars, although that's prolly what's in store for everyone if we're lucky, till we pass the resource bottleneck/singularity whatever, and the utopia fairies dispense baby palomino unicorns to the strains of kumbaya.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2012 at 09:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: S'cuse Me? (4.00 / 4)

I saw it and still gave the comment a 4.

The only understanding of that phrase I could reach was either a reference to certain environmentalists' rejection of large industrial schemes (which I don't share), or a reference to certain environmentalists' belief in a natural equilibrium which would establish itself if only we would stop "meddling" with Nature. Another belief I don't share, that finds its roots (for most in the Western world, at least) in Enlightenment thinking about the natural state, and is paralleled by economic-liberal equilibrium beliefs.

But it's true epochepoque's brush is very broad there.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 02:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: S'cuse Me? (none / 0)

That's what I meant. I didn't want to diss environmentalism in general or say they just sit back. The "sit back" part applies to the neolibs.

_{Schengen is toast!}

by epochepoque on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 02:44:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: S'cuse Me? (4.00 / 3)

I've given it a four as well, particularly because the links and nested links are so damn good.

But to discount the "ecology movement" with such a broad brush is completely false, despite wide environmentalism having its own problems to solve... like all pirate movements.

I'm thinking the link between corporate poison and finance was never completely clear to them. Yet we have Mike Roselle, a founder of Earth First! and the man who put the teeth back into the Stop Mountaintop Removal effort, going to live in coal country to foment direct action. His efforts attract the attention of Reverend Billy Talen, who then takes direct action to the lobbies of the Wall St. banks who finance mountaintop removal. And piles coal waste in the lobbies, while having his gospel choir singing.

and bingo, some of them stop, as it's just too bad for their image.

Perhaps epoch's wording was poor, perhaps doesn't quite understand how widespread the poison is within the system, but it's a false meme to spread.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 03:01:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fusion and Solar; Society and Investment (none / 1)

epochepoque:

As for the big projects, I'd like to see some strategic buildout of vital infrastructure like rail or energy (efficiency). That kind of project doesn't necessarily need more research or gizmos. But care and attention are paramount. So how do we get those back? Someone has to strike gold and actually complete successful projects. If the benefits are there for everyone to experience, trust in competence will be built. And if people (collectively) undertake such projects themselves in their own lives it builds care and attention. Maybe this is the drink talking...

In the 19th century Nils Ericson - older brother of John Ericsson of Monitor fame - headed the building of much of the Swedish railroad net. For finishing his projects on time and under budget he eventually got ennobled as well as statues in both Stockholm and Gothenburg. So if we see it from the pov of society, giving status for things that actually matter appears to be a good thing.

Both Nils and John also grew up on the Göta kanal project that connected Gothenburg with Stockholm and essentially gathered all the top technical expertise in (then very rural) Sweden. So I don't think it is just the drink, it is also the historical experience.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Apr 14th, 2012 at 03:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fusion and Solar; Society and Investment | 57 comments (57 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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