The Change They Believe In | 152 comments (152 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 1)

I have not seen much claim that Powell, Thomas, or whatshisname are or were puppets.

One cannot really have this discussion until facts are established. For example

"while taking more campaign money from rich white wall st fatcats than anyone else"

is not a fact. In fact, it is trivially refuted, but continues to be an article of faith - which is an interesting phenomenon. Apparently people need to believe this.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2012/05/super-pac-spending-teeters-at-100-million-mark.html

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/candidate.php?id=N00009638

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/sectorall.php?cycle=2012

"gentrifying chicago"

An accusation, not backed up by anything.

And then
"nothing wrong with resolving duality, per se, but when you keep going down the list, re making strides with global nuclear disarmament, while further decimating habeus corpus and increasing drone use on countries with whom no war has been declared, with significant civilian 'collateral' slaughter, strike one war, then surge in another... "

makes no sense at all. Such duality is the best one can expect in our world where the nature of power is brutality. E.g. LBJ "revolution in civil rights while atrocities in Vietnam". Is there a single office holder in world history who does better than mixed?

"he is an enigma"
Yes, that is the claim, but it's a statement of belief, not a fact.

"self-centred demagogue whose appeal to those on the left was just a good line in rhetoric and vapourware,"

He ran for office as an avowed moderate and centrist.

To me, all these celebrity character psychological arguments are gibberish that makes me miss the old vulgar class analysis of the communists. At least that had some content.

by rootless2 on Thu May 10th, 2012 at 09:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 0)

thanks for the reply.

rootless2:

I have not seen much claim

that implies you have seen some... i thought maybe you had your wires crossed!

do you have any examples of rightist claims obama is a stooge for white interests?

rootless2:

"while taking more campaign money from rich white wall st fatcats than anyone else"
is not a fact.

i was referring to the last election, excuse me if i am wrong.

rootless2:

"gentrifying chicago"
An accusation, not backed up by anything.

just riffing off the diary, so you think it's all smoke and no fire then, ok.

rootless2:

"nothing wrong with resolving duality, per se, but when you keep going down the list, re making strides with global nuclear disarmament, while further decimating habeus corpus and increasing drone use on countries with whom no war has been declared, with significant civilian 'collateral' slaughter, strike one war, then surge in another... "
makes no sense at all. (exactly my point, ed) Such duality is the best one can expect in our world where the nature of power is brutality. E.g. LBJ "revolution in civil rights while atrocities in Vietnam". Is there a single office holder in world history who does better than mixed?

Such duality is the best one can expect in our world where the nature of power is brutality.

one begs to differ, history is not the future, yet anyway! the whole mojo obama bottled and fed us was a new approach to politics, and that's what we got alright, not governance leadership with fire in the belly as in the campaign, but pandering to special interests, (BP?) and extending the draconian, unconstitutional over-reach of the previous madministration.

rootless2:

LBJ "revolution in civil rights while atrocities in Vietnam".

yes LBJ split his pants too trying to keep opposing sides from mutual assured political destruction, your point being?

Is there a single office holder in world history who does better than mixed?

did i say there was? has there ever been such a politician as promising as obama in living memory?

straw man anyway, i wasn't remarking on his similarity to anyone, rather the opposite. usually by the end of the first term it's pretty freaking obvious what you got, not with Obama.

rootless2:

"he is an enigma"
Yes, that is the claim, but it's a statement of belief, not a fact.

i claim the opinion, sure. enigmas resist factualisation by nature.

rootless2:

He ran for office as an avowed moderate and centrist.

yes and also a firebreathing radical, depends where you saw him from, or which speech he was giving, to whom.

if my comment was content-free gibberish, why bother dignifying it with a reply?

rootless2:

makes me miss the old vulgar class analysis of the communists.

de gustibus non disputandum, comrade!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 10th, 2012 at 09:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 1)

I'd be fascinated to see a link to a speech from Obama where he came off as a fire breathing radical.

Certainly I don't know anyone who expected him to be the first political leader in human history to be without sin.

Last election numbers are often misstated.

1    Lawyers/Law Firms    $45,386,298
2    Retired    $42,859,404
3    Education    $24,533,794
4    Securities & Investment    $15,798,904
5    Misc Business    $15,170,193
6    Health Professionals    $12,661,821
7    Business Services    $11,947,978
8    Real Estate    $11,184,773
9    Computers/Internet    $9,262,922
10    TV/Movies/Music    $9,205,821
11    Civil Servants/Public Officials    $9,191,48

Securities and Investment is "contributions from people who worked at Securities and Investment Companies"- secretaries to top execs. So my friend, the single mother clerk who gave $2000 is listed as coming from securities industry.

The whole reason the Supreme Court had to strike down campaign expenditure limits for corporations is that the Obama campaign managed to raise more money than the right from mostly small contributions.

And I didn't say your post was gibberish.

by rootless2 on Thu May 10th, 2012 at 10:41:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 1)

rootless2:

Certainly I don't know anyone who expected him to be the first political leader in human history to be without sin.

nor do i.

i don't expect pigs to fly much either.

but i do argue that the canyon between his gift of hope while stumping and the post-election reality is ginormous, and it mystifies me how the gentleman reconciles the contradictions. when i say he's no open book, i don't grudge him that. i respect his abiity to compartmentalise is some ways, though it leaves me feeling winded, and while somewhat bitter about the let down, as many are,, i don't feel i really know obama, whereas most pols are pretty transparent.

he has done enough good as a president, in the face of such recalcitrance, that he'd get my vote just to try and thwart the epidemic of crazy from the GOP. it's far from a case of 'they're all the same at heart' with him.

he has shown himself to have a voice which rings chimes of freedom in the dispossessed, and it takes great courage to be the first non-lilywhite president in a country seething still with racism. as historical figure the man defies easy analysis, as is seen from the intense defence he gets from you, (and half of me), as well as the raw hatred for him as smoothtalking warmonger and agent for the 1% from the likes of some on the extreme left, who sometimes seem to hate him as much as the foamers in the teabaggers do.

i reserve judgment.

rootless2:

And I didn't say your post was gibberish.

some will certainly see my contributions that way, i don't hold it against them, they may be right!

there is no shame in my book in scrutinising and discussing the psychology of anyone, especially a man whose actions have such a massive effect on the lives of millions, indeed it is a world citizen's right and duty to do so, imo. we certainly have a better map of human aberration available now than we did a few decades ago, when concepts such as boundaries were much less understood. human motivation is often inscrutable, but rarely is as cryptic as evinced by obama, who effortlessly seems to serve two masters...

if i were to play with a musical metaphor i'd say he's a 'four tops' type. 'reach out, i'll be there!'

on the campaign he sometimes sounded more marvin gaye, s'all.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 11th, 2012 at 06:27:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 0)

"ut i do argue that the canyon between his gift of hope while stumping and the post-election reality is ginormous,"

ANGELA DAVIS: Well, of course, initially, few people believed that a figure like Barack Obama could ever be elected to the presidency of the United States, and because there were those who persisted, and, you know, largely young people, who helped to build this movement to elect Barack Obama, making use of all of the new technologies of communication. And so, on that day, November 4th, 2008, when Obama was elected, this was a world historical event. People celebrated literally all over the world -- in Africa, in Europe, in Asia, in South America, in the Caribbean, in the US. I was in Oakland, and there was literally dancing in the street. I didn't -- I don't remember any other moment that can compare to that collective euphoria that gripped people all over the world.
Now, here we are two years later, and many people are treating this as if it were business as usual. As a matter of fact, many people are dissatisfied with the Obama administration, because they fail to fulfill all of our dreams. And, you know, one of the points that I frequently make is that we have to beware of our tendency here in this country to look for messiahs and to project our own possible potential power on to others. What really disturbs me is that we have failed. Well, of course, I'm dissatisfied with many of the things that Obama has done. The war in Afghanistan needs to end right now. The healthcare bill could have been much stronger than it turned out to be. There are many issues about which we can be critical of Obama, but at the same time, I think we need to be critical of ourselves for not generating the kind of mass pressure to compel the Obama administration to move in a more progressive direction, remembering that the election was, in large part, primarily the result of just such a mass movement that was created by ordinary people all over the country.

by rootless2 on Fri May 11th, 2012 at 11:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 0)

rootless2:

primarily the result of just such a mass movement that was created by ordinary people all over the country.

...who voted for the stumping obama, and if they had had a crystal ball would possibly have stayed home.

now it's back to voting for him because the alternative seems so much worse.

rootless2:

I think we need to be critical of ourselves for not generating the kind of mass pressure to compel the Obama administration to move in a more progressive direction

thank kos for much of that pressure, but much more is needed.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 11th, 2012 at 12:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 1)

" ...who voted for the stumping obama, and if they had had a crystal ball would possibly have stayed home."

And would have found themselves impoverished and wary of Blackwater guards in Sarah Palin's America - or, for many of them, in Iran patrolling the streets.

"Pressure" and "vituperative attacks on the morals and character of a reformist President" are not the same things. What Dr. Davis means by pressure is something else.

by rootless2 on Fri May 11th, 2012 at 01:00:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 0)

what is 'something else'? petitions, letters to congress, blogging, OWS, general strike?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 11th, 2012 at 04:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Change They Believe In (none / 0)

Strikes, marches, elections of lower officials, boycotts, propagandizing, ...

Here in my state, Tea Party has gone from marches to winning primaries. "Left" is writing letters to The Nation.

by rootless2 on Fri May 11th, 2012 at 04:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Change They Believe In | 152 comments (152 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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