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I do not know what to think. Obviously a body like the house of lords is anything but democratic. But I find a couple of advantages in having a (somewhat toothless) upper house: (i) Long-term membership provides a counter-balance to short-termism. and (ii) in the specific case of the UK it seems that the house of lords has been used to give representation to groups that do not have it otherwise.

I am not defending the thing, just saying that if I could change something, my very very first would be to replace first-past-the-post with proportionality in parliament. That would bring real democracy to the UK, more than anything else.

by cagatacos on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 08:15:40 AM EST
In addition, the Lords, since they don't depend on the favour of the party apparatus for their position, have the luxury of voting on principle. Some of the worst attempted abuses of civil liberties attempted by British governments in the past decade were thwarted by the Lords.

So this is not a hypothetical, but an actual advantage of a second unelected chamber.

Replacing the Lords with another chamber elected on similar rules and on a similar calendar to the lower house is just a waste.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 08:31:29 AM EST
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Throwing out the bishops and replacing with a selection of ordinary folk chosen by sortition would make life interesting.

Of course members of the upper house are supposed to be educated and literate and all. But if the bishops can get a few seats, there's no reason why ordinary people couldn't be co-opted for a few years and paid a decent salary while they're sitting.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 09:54:47 AM EST
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Abolish the House of Lords, rename the remaining chamber the House of Posh and create a House of Commons filled by sortition with 20% renewed every year

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 10:13:29 AM EST
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Who runs the sortition? Diebold?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 10:40:03 AM EST
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Sortition selection would have to be run as part of the National Lottery. The winner gets lots of money. The runner up gets a seat in Parliament
by Gary J on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 10:58:35 AM EST
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No, the National Lottery is voluntary. If you would be eligible to be on the voter rolls you should be eligible to be selected by the Parliament Sweepstakes. It's a civic duty to serve if you're able, not a choice (like jury duty).

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 01:23:49 PM EST
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By enabling a mechanism of civic duty, it may in the long term lead to a better informed public. Voting is not a duty in most countries and even where it is a duty (Italy for example), it runs up against the bottom line of what electoral systems are all about: the possibility to choose between Tweedledee and Tweedledum, both the object of investments of enormous sums of money that expect to reap future dividends (It appears the combined warchests of Obama and Romney have passed the billion and a half dollar mark).

In effect voting is a one shot deal once every few years that tends to encourage infantilization of the citizenry and a disaffection towards the civic good. Voters express poorly considered opinions rather than exercise judgement, the latter a question of investing time, thought and one's personal repute in making a decision.

Unfortunately, electoral systems are equated with "democracy" and are largely considered a sine qua non. However, the present use of the term began with Woodrow Wilson. Before him, the term "democracy" had a very bad reputation. Our present forms of governments were literally created in a very rich period spanning perhaps 80 years from the American and French Constitutions to the invention of proportional representation in Europe in the 1860's. None of these experiments were conceived as "democracy" at the time but as a means to limit or eliminate hereditary aristocracy, by creating systems of checks and balances and ostensibly encouraging the advent of an aristocracy based on merit and time limits on magistracy. Considering the levels of enfranchisement at the time it was all very upper class with a healthy dose of self-glorification. The new elites just loved their new toy and generally dreaded the idea it could fall into the hands of the plebs. (An exception would be Jefferson's good friend and muse, Destutt de Tracy, who advocated female equality, universal suffrage and no contest divorce.)

Getting back to the specific case, as some comments make evident, there is utterly no "democratic" reason to change the House of Lords. It would only be a pale copy of the poor Commons, hostage to parties and the codswallop they shovel, in turn hostage to the ever present financial elites that keep those parties alive through "loans."

The House of Lords is quite the contrary a very "democratic" institution precisely because its members are not elected but generally selected on merit, some outstanding, many not so much. Since they haven't to respond to parties or an electorate, they have the leisure to use and express their judgement for the common welfare, which is probably why their House is now so powerless.

Much of this discussion has been affronted by Keith Sutherland in his essay A People's Parliament. Beyond Sutherland's advocacy of the use of sortition in the House of Commons, the dilemma of "democracy" and our present day "democratic regimes" is very much debated by the better minds on Sci Po Square. For a sobering and illuminating foray into all things democratic, I recommend Adam Przeworski's Democracy and the Limits of Self-Government.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 05:23:40 PM EST
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the present use of the term began with Woodrow Wilson. Before him, the term "democracy" had a very bad reputation.

That probably goes all the way back to Aristotle.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 06:11:37 PM EST
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Actually Plato. I can't remember off hand who said it but philosophy was invented as an elite tool to justify an anti-democratic concept of the state.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Jun 30th, 2012 at 02:09:19 AM EST
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Party politics is not absent from the House of Lords. Most of the existing nominated members take a party whip and many of them are professional politicians or party donors. Once appointed the life peers are not so dependent on party patronage as MPs, but most are still loyal to their party.

The plan, in the proposed new House, is to make members serve a non renewable 15 year term and to restrict eligibility for former members to be elected to the House of Commons (for 4.5 years after they leave the Lords). It is hoped that this approach will avoid creating a House of people obsessed with making sure they can be re-elected.

by Gary J on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 06:17:53 PM EST
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The plan sounds good. It harks back to the Roman republic but has often gone array in South American experiences. (South America has always been a hotbed of regime experimentation.)

Now if the House of Commons were to chosen by sortition the 4.5 year hiatus would be out the window.

But then what powers would the House of Lords have, seeing that it is largely ineffective at the moment?

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Jun 30th, 2012 at 02:19:56 AM EST
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Presumably jury selection or drawing lots for manning electoral precincts or other civic duties is being done currently by reliable means without having to resort to Diebold?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 01:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Replacing the Lords with another chamber elected on similar rules and on a similar calendar to the lower house is just a waste.

Were it not difficult how this could facilitate accomplishment of any Lib-Dem government's goal, as the prospect of such a government is so remote, I might think that might be the goal. It would make more likely that a party with a large mandate could push through anything. Sounds like so many 'reform' efforts over the last two decades.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 02:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. What you would get is an assembly without a partisan majority, in which the libdems imagine being the perpetual swing group.

This is a largely mechanical result of the proposed electoral system : proportional by region, as for the European parliamentary elections. We can extrapolate the last result, that of 2009, to get an idea. There are 5 parties representing the UK in the EU: by size of group, Conservative, Labour, Ukip, Libdem, Green. There might be one or two more parties represented because of the smaller quota required (120 "lords" per election, compared to 72 EMPs), but you get the idea.

This is sufficiently different from the FPP Commons method to be a pretty good way to elect an upper house. But cut the "life senztors" crap please.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 05:29:54 PM EST
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There have been a lot of enquiries and committees on the subject of Lords reform in the past 15 years. One of the generally agreed principles is that one party should not have a majority, which is why the proposals include proportional representation for the elected members and the largely non-partisan nominated members and Lords Spiritual.

It is likely that the non-partisan "cross-benchers" (who function as a technical group in the House of Lords) will be the third largest group in the reformed House. The Liberal Democrats will probably be the next largest. There will then be smaller numbers of members from various other parties.

Under the new order no one will serve for more than fifteen years, so the old idea of membership for life will disappear.

by Gary J on Fri Jun 29th, 2012 at 06:35:02 PM EST
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No. What you would get is an assembly without a partisan majority, in which the libdems imagine being the perpetual swing group.

Except they are the 3rd party in a first past the post system because they gained the status of second party in enough electorates.

A multi-seat constituency system is going to tilt over time more toward the Greens being the balance of power, as in the Ozzie Senate ~ indeed, the Ozzie Dems were the balance of power for a while, but in making a deal with the Conservative Coalition (Libs and Nats) on a VAT, they relegated themselves to irrelevancy.

It would be a small bit poignant if the Lib Dems got the House of Lords reform through as their last gasp before their already existing coalition with the Tories knocked them down in a similar way. The poignancy would be substantially tempered by the fact that the idiotic gits had it coming for being foolish enough to strike the deal.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jun 30th, 2012 at 03:19:45 PM EST
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It is unlikely, with the proposals as they are, that a single party or group will have the balance of power between Labour and Conservative members in the reformed House.

I suspect that the cross-benchers would be the third largest group.

The Liberal Democrats have been weakened by participation in the coalition, but they remain the third largest party and I see no likelihood that they will lose that position or not be the 4th largest group in the House of Lords.

by Gary J on Sat Jun 30th, 2012 at 08:26:24 PM EST
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The House of Lords is not as powerful a House of Review as the Australian Senate, so it may not be as big a driver of 3rd party dynamics ~ but the position of a 3rd party relying primarily on standing in first past the post constituencies will always be brittle.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jul 1st, 2012 at 02:31:01 PM EST
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cagatacos:
I am not defending the thing, just saying that if I could change something, my very very first would be to replace first-past-the-post with proportionality in parliament. That would bring real democracy to the UK, more than anything else.

In light of this, I think the reformed proposed is a good thing. Having one chamber elected by proportional representation should over time increase the pressure on reform of the commons.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jun 30th, 2012 at 03:19:17 AM EST
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Thanks. I actually did not know that the LibDem proposal was proportionality for the upper house. Smart. Unexpected...
by cagatacos on Sat Jun 30th, 2012 at 11:14:35 AM EST
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