Is nuclear energy more expensive than offshore wind? | 121 comments (121 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: You can do better than this. (4.00 / 3)

So, when the French state saved Alstom, that was clearly illegal state aid? The very ownership of state companies like Vattenfall or EdF is illegal state aid? State investment to support SME's are illegal state aid as well? Someone should tell the Swedish government then. Furthermore and very clearly, all bank bailouts are illegal state aid.

This seems very much a rubber paragraph, which can be used whenever someone has an axe to grind, and to be ignored when it fits the interests of the Commission.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 11:14:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (none / 0)

Furthermore and very clearly, all bank bailouts are illegal state aid.

And Commissioner Almunia and his staff are going to be controling the process...

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 11:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (4.00 / 2)

Yay.

Ok, this is what the rules say:

By contrast, general measures are not regarded as State aid because they are not selective and apply to all companies regardless of their size, location or sector

So... offer all companies, no matter what size or sector or owner, the option of taking part in a massively diluting rigths issue, where the government injects, say 10 % of current equity in the company, and in return gets new shares equal to 1000% of the current number of shares. This would be equal and open to all, but no company would ever except the "offer", except one that is already 100% state-owned.

In this way you could issue sovereign bonds and transfer the cash into state-owned power companies while avoiding the illegal state aid rules.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 11:43:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (none / 0)

If the value of the loans were measured to 'energy units' instead of current currencies. this would marry with Chris Cook's ideas, wouldn't it?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 01:23:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (4.00 / 2)

Commodity pegs are just as deflationary as gold buggery or ECBuggery.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 06:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (none / 0)

Isnt that because all commodities have become hedge fund spec?
Plus the fact they are diminishing supply?
Investing in solar rollout is trusting a source of energy that is as close to infinite as we'll ever need.
There would be risk of some inflation during short to medium term due to bandwaggoning/carpet-bagging but it would settle down when the train got rolling and the thrillseekers went looking for a bubble with more quick profits.
Plenty sunshine for everyone to get pie.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 08:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (4.00 / 4)

No, it is because if you peg your money to a real resource (be it gold, oil, carbon, or entropy) you allow society to potentially generate credit claims to more real resources than can actually exist (and, based on past experience, this potentiality will eventually be realised) which is then followed by a debt-deflation cycle when the bubble pops.

Fiat money allows such nonsense to be inflated away (which is why inflation-indexed debt is as systemically risky as especie pegs).

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 08:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (4.00 / 4)

Not just that - Your monetary base gets vulnerable to technological shocks.

.... actually it is even worse than that. Shock implies surprises, but energy production is predictably going to dee upheavals. - it is the one sector of the economy guaranteed to experience technological changes. I dont know how we will be producing electrons in 2032, nor what they will cost, and neither does anyone else. -

I can list half-a-dozen highly plausible optinons for future generation mixes and technologies off the top of my head - some of them are unavoidably moderately more expensive than unmitigated coal, and some of them are ridiculusly cheap. Either of which would completely wreck any currency based off the supply of power. Bad, bad, bad idea.

by Thomas on Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 06:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (none / 0)

Thomas:

some of them are ridiculously cheap.

promises, promises...

just supposing we envision a future ever embroigled in the 'winner-takes-all' zero-sum game we call predatory capitalism, couldn't we make at least it fair?

ie no whining when the wheel turns against you and you bet loses to the house. if your currency breaks on the reefs of reality, then cut your losses and bet on another one.

or go home and bake cookies...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 07:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

State aid (4.00 / 3)

well, State ownership is not a factor, as the EU was not allowed to decide on forms of ownership, but State-owned firms are supposed to finance themselves without a State guarantee, explicit or implicit.

That applied to EDF but also to the Landesbanken, whose business model (borrow cheap and lend cheap to local companies) was broken by the EU to comply with the "competition" demands of the London-based (and US-owned) investment banks. So they had to borrow expensive, and turned to crazy stuff like MBS to earn the equivalent revenue, while their past clients went to the investment banks for loans (and get cut off at times of crisis...)

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 12:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: State aid (3.50 / 2)

I wouldn't put all the blame on Anglo banks. While the prime beneficents are the rentiers in the financial sector these Competition rules favor all well established players.

by generic on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 01:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can do better than this. (none / 0)

This seems very much a rubber paragraph, which can be used whenever someone has an axe to grind, and to be ignored when it fits the interests of the Commission.

Quite.

Which, given the macroeconomic acumen of the current Commission, translates to "no significant public investment in anything useful."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2012 at 03:04:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is nuclear energy more expensive than offshore wind? | 121 comments (121 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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