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The Economist's sad hack job about German energy policy | 134 comments (134 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (4.00 / 2)
The economist is like any other news media, people buy it more to have their prejudices reinforced than to be more widely informed. Thus this article falls nicely into that niche.

Of course, it is worrying that a magazine which is widely read amongst the political elite is really just a neoliberal propaganda unit but, ultimately, this says more about the general cluelessness of the people who read it than it does about the industry it describes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 02:40:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (4.00 / 6)
In the case of hogwash talked about renewables, I don't think people at large had these "prejudices" to start with. They are the result of lobbying and PR campaigns spreading carefully-crafted poison. Of course, being carefully crafted by communications professionals, they feed into pre-existing frames. But a lot of the precise points made in this article were not in people's minds a decade ago. Examples: subsidies, intermittence, ugliness.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 08:30:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (4.00 / 5)
i believe you're correct with regard to continental Yurp, but for sure the arguments of subsidies, intermittence, ugliness were very present in the orchestrated Country Guardian campaign in England going back nearly two decades. Some of the memes seem to have taken hold here on the continent now, though they were present in the past elsewhere (like France) to some degree as well.

Did the article leave out the bird straw dog?

The anti-wind propaganda campaign is orchestrated now precisely because in several key markets, wind has achieved "critical mass"  ;-)  as an industry, as an employer, and as an export model. And as a reliable generator of electricity.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 09:35:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (4.00 / 4)
OK, the UK countryside protectors go back further. But in France I find the spread of anti-wind ideas is fairly recent. I'm now at the point where, when I see somebody I can reliably expect to be all for reducing GHG emissions (whether they are pro- or anti-nuke), I can be pretty sure that if I say "wind" they will turn out to be against, even virulently against.

Yes, you're right, the progress of renewables is the reason for increased intensity in the anti campaign. But the memes didn't pop up totally spontaneously...

I didn't see any mention of one-horned goats in the article. Nor of straw dogs, nor links to organized crime. We should write to the Economist to set the record straight.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 11:42:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (none / 0)
The economist is like any other news media, people buy it more to have their prejudices reinforced than to be more widely informed.

Well it's not true of ET right?

by njh on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 11:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (3.50 / 2)
Right. No, wrong. Well...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 11:43:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (none / 1)
If only we were paid as much as Econo-hacks.

Also, ET's success as a relentless engine of propaganda for the Great Liberal Conspiracy seems somewhat limited to date.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 12:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (none / 1)
A mix of both, to be sure.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 12:05:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ET (none / 1)
My right wing friends (yes I have some) sometimes tell me that there is too much group think and homogeneity of ideas on ET. Then I tell them I'm usually in a minority on the site :)


Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 12:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (4.00 / 2)
You mean there's more than one path to a sustainable present?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 01:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (4.00 / 2)
Tell them they don't notice the groupthink and homogeneity of ideas that are out there in general, because they happen to coincide with their views.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 04:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 1)
Maybe we should re-do the political compass of ET and see if it has changed.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 04:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
-8.25, -7.64 (none / 1)
There are more dog-whistles in that questionnaire than I remember.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 05:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
-9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
Economic Left/Right: -9.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.18
by jam on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 10:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Interesting:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 01:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
How did they get these values?

res humà m'és aliè
by Antoni Jaume on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 02:12:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Possibly from public statements by the governments?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 03:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Where is a copy of the last version of the ET political compass? (IIRC it was on the ET wiki [RIP].)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 04:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (4.00 / 2)
Found it!

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 05:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
Oh, and I find myself this time at:

Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.21

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 02:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Where do you find out what your numbers are?
by sgr2 on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 05:55:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
On the site The Political Compass. Also, direct link to the test.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 06:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
mine -8.25, -5.49

res humà m'és aliè
by Antoni Jaume on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 07:21:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
Ha. I feared I might be tending centrist, what with incipient old age and everything.

Economic Left/Right: -7.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.10

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 08:13:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
Pff. Splitter.

-9.00
-8.27

by generic on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 08:27:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
 -9.75,  -8.51
by Katrin on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 09:27:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Moved to the Left on economics since the last time I took it:

-9.12, -6.46

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 11:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
-9.75, -9.03 (none / 1)
I've moved left and down.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 12:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Thanks, I think.

Yikes, no wonder I have problems fitting in. My score doesn't look like anybody else who has posted theirs. I seem to be way out there in bottom left field. Just for some perspective, if either afew or melo are around and can recall their numbers, could you please post them? I'm just curious if I'm in bad man's land all by myself or if I might have some company somewhere, anywhere nearby.

by sgr2 on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 12:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
The 2006 results can be seen in the chart.

But many appears to have moved (from comments here, not a rigorous analysis).

How do we evaluate the results? If Mig is up to it, making another graph would give some idea.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 12:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
-8.88, -8.05 (4.00 / 2)
That's my new score.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 01:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
I seem to be way out there in bottom left field.

Hm? Amost everyone on ET is in the bottom left field.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 04:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Well yes, but no.

Comparing the location of my dot on the graph on the test result at the Political Compass site with the position of names on the ET Political Compass previously posted, my "dot" would appear to be located a little left of you (somewhere between you and afew), and on about the same level as a swedish kind of death; yet the numbers make no sense at all.     -3.62 and -6.31?

by sgr2 on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 04:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
Have you noted that the ET-graph (from 2006) is not evenly scaled?

-3.62 economic and -6.31 social lands you near MarekNYC (whom we have not seen for some time).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 06:20:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (4.00 / 2)
Note that the ET graph has 0,0 as the upper right hand corner while the Political Compass has 10,10 as the upper right hand corner. In other words, ET is located entirely within the lower left hand quadrant of the Political Compass!
by jam on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 09:02:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (4.00 / 2)
IIRC, Migeru had trouble getting the individual dots and names to be separately readable, hence a large image of the bottom left quadrant and an adapted scale.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 09:31:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Thanks for pointing that out. Now it makes more sense.  
by sgr2 on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 01:44:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
you asked, madame?

The Political Compass - Test

Economic Left/Right: -8.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 02:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (4.00 / 2)
It's a bit stupid, e.g. "A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system."

It is true that this is significant advantage.  Doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

by njh on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 12:30:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
It has - I think - a broad target audience. And it is also a bit US-centric (then again, our world is US-centric).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 12:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
I beg to differ: I'm not sure avoiding all the arguments is an advantage. The state will go ahead with a lot more stupid, dangerous or evil schemes.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 04:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 1)
Yes, but the context was "delay". Participation costs a lot of time.
by Katrin on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 04:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
-6.25, -6.77 (4.00 / 2)
Guess I'm still a hippy, dippy.
by ElaineinNM on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 05:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (4.00 / 4)
But my point is that haste makes waste. It's no advantage when the undelayed reaction to a nuclear disaster or earthquake is a media blackout, or the quick reaction to low grain yield is requisition from the farmers for the army to the point that they'll die of famine, or if the quick reaction to a sovereign debt crisis is the imposition of the crazy ideological policies of some boys from Chicago.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 02:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (4.00 / 4)
Of course it's an advantage, just not for you or me. That's the whole point of a one-party system, though: it's an advantage for someone. "advantage" depends on the point of view. I'm completely with you that it's not desirable or an advantage for the 99%, though.
by Katrin on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 04:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (4.00 / 2)
It's not even an advantage for the powers-that-be if the result is not what was planned. The Chernobyl media blackout brought a blowback in the form of public distrust and outrage from other countries reached by the plume. The famine engineered by Stalin in the Ukraine killed off the farmers who would work the fields to produce grain the next year. In Pinochet's Chile, there were beneficiaries of the initial bubble, but the lack of the expected growth (and expected rise in tax incomes to be spent on pet projects like military equipment) wasn't what the regime dreamt about.  

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 05:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Yes, possibly. I note though that your examples aren't examples for "hasty decisions with result that wasn't planned". Which countries or who were outraged about the Chernobyl media blackout? Only the usual suspects of anti-nuke-protesters. And was it really a decision that is very much different from that in a liberal democracy such as Japan? The Ukrainian famine: probably not sufficiently explained by "hasty" decisions turning out to have unintended results. Nobody in the ruling oligarchy dared to raise objections. The ruling oligarchy was not capable of a rational decision. And Pinochet's Chile: what was unintended?

Even if there examples of the speed of undemocratic decisions backfiring for the ruling oligarchy, I think it is rather the exception and not the rule.

by Katrin on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 08:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
-6.8, -6. Not much change.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 08:34:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: -9.00, -7.18 (none / 0)
Does this mean you are right, or unable to change?
by njh on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 11:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here: (none / 0)
Clicky.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 07:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Here: (none / 0)
Thanks.
by sgr2 on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 11:03:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (4.00 / 4)
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.18

I should be -6/-6. I think the questions press one into a strongly agree /strongly disagree direction. And somehow there seem to be few economic questions and virtually none on ecology.

by IM on Thu Aug 2nd, 2012 at 02:04:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Green/Brown is the missing third axis (none / 1)
And I agree on the lack of subtlety. I would probably be more centrist on economic issues with more pertinent questions.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 05:18:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Green/Brown is the missing third axis (none / 1)
On the other end of the scale, too: I felt right-wing/authoritarian opinions were tested with too many fascist positions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 05:52:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How do you rate on the Green/Brown axis? (none / 1)




It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 08:35:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: How do you rate on the Green/Brown axis? (none / 0)
Haven't taken this test yet, but predict I will be somewhere on the red zone in the left.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 12:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 0)
> I think the questions press one into a strongly
> agree /strongly disagree direction.

Depends on political position. My result was -2, -1,38 and I found many questions hard to answer.

by Jute on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 06:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 1)
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a centrist!

Welcome! No irony.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 08:25:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 0)
For some reason centrists seem to be underrepresented in political and economic discussion forums.
by Jute on Thu Aug 9th, 2012 at 09:03:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 0)
Feel free to remedy that!

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Aug 9th, 2012 at 09:26:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 0)
-9.75, -8.97.

I click on "strongly" a lot....

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Aug 8th, 2012 at 10:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 1)
I find that the debate of ideas is vastly improved when contrary views are expressed, and I often see evidence of sloppy thinking on ET. The problem is that the role of "loyal opposition", or token right-winger, is a somewhat thankless one, and nobody lasts too long in it.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 04:13:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (4.00 / 2)
I also appreciate the ideological confrontations here, as they sharpen arguments.
Civility is tested, but it's a small price for diversity.  

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 05:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: ET (none / 1)
I always upvote contrary viewpoints that are well argued (indeed if I gave you an upvote it probably means I think you're wrong :).  If we all did that we might prevent groupthink etc.
by njh on Fri Aug 3rd, 2012 at 12:39:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (4.00 / 2)
Well, ET is definitely a good place "to be more widely informed", whether you like it or not :) and whether you were looking for information in the first place: it's a (welcome) by product. As for your prejudices, there's a good chance they might be thoroughly challenged as much as reinforced...
by Bernard (bernard) on Tue Jul 31st, 2012 at 03:25:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Economist's sad hack job (none / 1)
Certainly the "groupthink", "conventional wisdom" or however you like to characterize it, is quite a long way from that which you encounter elsewhere.

It is one thing to be sourly cynical about the motivations and knowledge of the elite decision makers (my own personal forte), it is another to consistently offer different perspectives which demonstrate there are real and preferable alternatives to the idiocies on display.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 1st, 2012 at 03:07:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Economist's sad hack job about German energy policy | 134 comments (134 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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