Murdoch: at the Olympics | 100 comments (100 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

The way I see it, parties would morph into lobbies or think tanks.

The problem would be that parties would have no democratic legitimacy, and in particular, no obvious basis for public funding. i.e. the think tanks would be dominated by moneyed interests.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 08:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

Maybe candidates running for single seats under preferential or transferable voting have democratic legitimacy. I'm not so sure about parlamentarians elected in first-past-the-post, let alone party-list systems.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 09:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 1)

Are we talking about the legitimacy of candidates, or of parties?

Currently, (mileage may vary in your jurisdiction) a party which gets 10% in elections at a particular level of government is entitled to (say) 10% of the available public funding. The party is resourced, not only for its electoral action, but as lobbyist or think tank, in function of its democratic legitimacy. This is why we have public financing, without which the left is completely kneecapped (absent mass movements of the working class).

Where does that leave parties in your sortition system? De-financed and de-legitimized.

Just because we don't like any of the parties much, it doesn't mean they don't have a useful function as mediators of the political system. Probably they need to be regulated more (transparency and democracy in their internal functioning would be a good start!)

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 09:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (4.00 / 3)

One could solve that problem by a two chamber system, one elected, the other appointed by sortition.

by Katrin on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 09:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

Upper house elected, lower house appointed by sortition.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

Would Germany need a 3-chamber system, to accommodate the Bundesrat?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:01:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 1)

I suggest we start getting a majority for our plans first and think that one out later.

by Katrin on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

In Spain, if 97% of the population voted 'blank' out of disgust, and the remaining 3% voted for just one party, they would get 100% of available public funding, and according to you all the democratic legitimacy, too.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 09:59:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

A failure of political offer in democracy is, in principle, a transitory condition. Unless someone is actively preventing people from forming new parties.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (4.00 / 3)

How do you interpret the current situation of decreasing voter turnout then? People are fed up with the factual one party system of neoliberals painted black, red, and green. Our media have taken on the role of actively preventing people from forming new parties.

by Katrin on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 1)

and Los Piraten have shown us how hard that is in reality, even if nerds have a better understanding of of the technology of a future society.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 01:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 1)

Is 'Los Piraten' an intentional pun about the pirate party going astray?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 03:20:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (4.00 / 2)

In practice, elections are inherently oligarchic, as argued by Aristotle on a theoretical level and demonstrated by the Romans on a practical one.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 11:14:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

elections are inherently oligarchic

Two possibilities :

They reflect the (existing or latent) oligarchy in an already oligarchic society
even in a non-oligarchic society, they favour the emergence of an oligarchy.

At best, elected representatives are a self-selecting sample of people who believe they know better than the rest of their fellow citizens.

The essence of democracy is government by consent. This does not require the active involvement of every citizen; and clearly it's too much to ask of most people. Sortition may be asking too much.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 03:40:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

Sortition may be asking too much

Are you against jury duty or drawing lots for manning polling stations?

It's not a favour being asked, it's a civic duty. Plus, it would be remunerated as a full-time job. Possibly at a couple multiples of median income so as not to make it an overly onerous duty.

Military service or mandatory civic service are other examples of civic duty.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 03:49:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Channeling Graeber (none / 0)

3. They allow oligarchic groups to gain disproportionate political influence.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 03:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Murdoch: at the Olympics | 100 comments (100 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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