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So you claim that religious organisations have significantly more influence per member than other organisations? I doubt that.

Yes.

Trade unions do not have laws against mocking their feelings.

Perhaps you underrate how many people identify with churches.

No. I just oppose laws that privilege churches over other social gatherings on no other basis than that they are popular.

I do, however, note that churches often lie about how many members they have.

I note that there are some privileges of churches that are becoming controversial and that will have to go--in Germany it's the funding by the state that's highest on the list. I don't see that there is support for scrapping legislation against defamatory acts, though.

I'm not asking for a revocation of libel laws.

All I'm asking for is equal treatment. If it is legal to say that comparing Bill Gates to a pestilential, cock-sucking gutter rat is an insult to gutter rats, then it should also be legal to say that comparing the Pope to a pestilential, etc.

Religious people need to grow the fuck up and realize that every other organization with a comparable turnover and public profile to the Russian Orthodox Church has to deal with punkers like Pussy Riot protesting their activities.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 31st, 2012 at 12:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If it is legal to say that comparing Bill Gates to a pestilential, cock-sucking gutter rat is an insult to gutter rats, then it should also be legal to say that comparing the Pope to a pestilential, etc

Well, and I know of no law that treats the two different, so what exactly do you want to prove?

by Katrin on Fri Aug 31st, 2012 at 02:07:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just a few posts ago, you supported the existence of different, looser, definitions of defamatory speech when the subject of the speech is a religious group or creed than when it is any other group or creed.

But, OK. You don't see a problem with comparing the Pope to a diseased rodent. Then what's your gripe with making mimed punk-rock in a church that's open to the general public and was not being used for any church-related purposes at the time?

(Denmark has such a law, by the way, although nobody has actually been convicted since the Interbellum.)

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 31st, 2012 at 06:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You happily jump between offending the Pope (a person), political speech on religion or behaviour of clerics, and defamation of religion/religious groups.

Can you make clear what you are talking about?

by Katrin on Sat Sep 1st, 2012 at 04:43:51 AM EST
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Offending the Pope is political speech, because the Pope has decided that he wants to be a political figure.

Calling out the behavior of clerics is political speech insofar as that behavior is sanctioned by the Church, because the Church has decided that it wants to be a political actor.

Defamation of anybody is a crime. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about whether there should be a lower standard for what constitutes defamation of religious groups than of non-religious groups. And about whether religious groups should get to decide whether the insult constitutes defamation. Because that's the prerogative you want to arrogate for religious communities. It's a prerogative no other group has - not even under the absurdly frivolous British libel law - and which is deeply corrosive to democracy (again, the best example of how frivolous libel law hurts society is the UK).

Religious people sometimes, erroneously, believe that either of the first two is defamation of themselves and their faith. This is obviously horseshit. But the frequent assertion makes it extremely relevant to a discussion of whether religious people should be allowed to set their own standards for defamation.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 1st, 2012 at 05:07:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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