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My post was based on the fact that you plainly ignored most of the points I've been making and were simply repeating comments I'd already responded to - especially about the political elements of religious belief.

And I'll remind you that you were the one arrogant enough to claim that I have no idea what 'progressive' means.

I know about what your beliefs exactly what you've said - which is that they're founded in what you call religious principles.

If you're claiming those religious principles have no supernatural element whatsoever, I'll admit that's an interpretation of 'religious' I've never met before.

As for your question - performance of what, exactly?

I tend not to gatecrash the services in the village church here because hardly anyone goes to them anyway. While the vicar's wife disapproves of my morals - we got off on the wrong foot when she asked to come hunting and my response was less than enthusiastic - what goes on at that end of the village has no effect on what goes on inside my house, so there's no particular need to Dada a protest against it.

I find the CoE ridiculous, but its political influence in the UK is far less significant than it thinks it is.

The new breed of US-style megachurches are far more dangerous - especially the ones teaching a 'prosperity gospel.' But there aren't any near here, and I don't think interrupting them on stage would be as useful as trashing them in print.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Sep 1st, 2012 at 03:41:17 PM EST
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VBO said a few days ago that there seemed to be an attitude that progressives couldn't be religious and you confirmed this suspicion. Bullshit. Yes,

I believe that there is something beyond our powers and I have often felt it when I was in situations when I didn't know a way out but felt sure I could trust some way would open for me. And so it always did.

I don't care at all if anyone shares beliefs or not, but I don't think I have to put up with mockery or have performances such as Pussy riot's forced on me or any other believer. To get back to the point that started the whole debate: I want PR's behaviour criminalised for these reasons.

If an action is directed against political statements of clerics or hierarchies I have no issue with them. It's the activists responsibility not to take the church members hostage. PR did that and that's what I want punished.  

I notice all right that you are forever telling me about US American TV preachers and other reactionaries. If that is not meant to insinuate that you find political influence of religious is necessarily right-wing, what else do you want to tell us then?

by Katrin on Sat Sep 1st, 2012 at 04:17:49 PM EST
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I don't care at all if anyone shares beliefs or not, but I don't think I have to put up with mockery or have performances such as Pussy riot's forced on me or any other believer.

What, precisely, about their performance in the church do you object to? It can't be the "screeching," because the sound was added in post.

Apparently, nobody found their dress or miming sufficiently offensive at the time to warrant any action beyond telling them to fuck off. Which they did, without further ado.

To get back to the point that started the whole debate: I want PR's behaviour criminalised for these reasons.

For what reason? Dressing provocatively in church? Filming a video in church? Staging a miming act in church?

Or posting a song you don't like on YouTube?

If an action is directed against political statements of clerics or hierarchies I have no issue with them. It's the activists responsibility not to take the church members hostage.

It is the laity's responsibility to not associate itself with reactionary clergy. To not give their time to reactionary clergy. To not go to the sermons of reactionary clergy. And to not give money to reactionary clergy.

If they won't do that, they own the policies, and they get to live with the criticism.

I have no sympathy at all for someone who claims to be offended by Pussy Riot and then meekly shuffles along to hear the Patriarch incite hate crimes against homosexuals, and peddle partisan political propaganda. No sympathy at all.

Just like I have no sympathy at all for people who are members of the British National Party "just for the rock concerts."

PR did that and that's what I want punished.

How did they take worshipers hostage? There were mostly tourists in the church at the time, and what they actually did while they were in the church didn't even merit a disorderly conduct charge.

Can you take people hostage retroactively, by publishing a video on YouTube?

I notice all right that you are forever telling me about US American TV preachers and other reactionaries. If that is not meant to insinuate that you find political influence of religious is necessarily right-wing, what else do you want to tell us then?

That if you argue for the right of religious people to not be insulted, you are arguing for the prosecution of people who say that gays are people too. Because there are religious people who find that sentiment to be a mortal insult.

And they are many. And they vote. So that is really not a precedent that any progressive with two neurons to rub together wants to set.

Add to this the fact is that the political influence of religion is predominantly right-wing, and it becomes really glaringly obvious why it is stupid and short-sighted to demand the right for religious groups to censor people they don't like on no other basis than that they don't like them.

Censorship is also morally wrong, but that argument doesn't seem to carry much weight with people whose religious knickers have gotten into a twist.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 1st, 2012 at 04:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"It is the laity's responsibility to not associate itself with reactionary clergy. To not give their time to reactionary clergy. To not go to the sermons of reactionary clergy. And to not give money to reactionary clergy."

Thanks for confirming that you are quite comfortable with taking the church in their entirety hostage.

"Add to this the fact is that the political influence of religion is predominantly right-wing,"

Small wonder with the attitudes one finds among so called progressives.

I find that generally the right wing has too much impetus these days, but hey, hearing you one must get the impression religion is the cause.

by Katrin on Sat Sep 1st, 2012 at 05:50:02 PM EST
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Thanks for confirming that you are quite comfortable with taking the church in their entirety hostage.

The patriarch already did that with his political propagandizing.

If the laity is not equally offended at the patriarch's hostage-taking as they are at his detractors, then it is difficult to interpret that as anything other than assent to the particular party line the patriarch is preaching.

I see no reason a Catholic should get a free pass from being a member of the same political organization as the Pope, when a Sinn Fein member does not get a free pass from answering for being a member of the same political organization as Gerry Adams.

And all the contrary assertions you've brought to this discussion have been special pleading.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 1st, 2012 at 08:25:15 PM EST
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