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Church is NOT public place open to whoever pays for it like some public hall. It is place of worship.

Totally irrelevant.

It is a historical site, and as such belong to all the people. You don't get to exclude non-communists from visiting Lenin's tomb, or the memorial to the fallen of the Great Patriotic War either.

The fact that it is open for tourists to see its historical value does NOT mean that tourist do not have to obey with rules of this specific place.

They have to obey the secular rules.

What we're discussing here is whether the Orthodox Church should get to make the rules for how to use a public historical site which it happens to use for ceremonies.

C'mon, is it so hard to understand?

No, I just don't agree with granting religions that sort of undeserved, unearned and discriminatory privilege.

And this was hardly silent performance

Actually, it was. The sound was added in post.

and even if it was, and even if we ignore dress code, the fact that they hijacked altar is a huge thing in the eyes of believers

So what?

The eyes of believers do not matter. Only the eyes of disinterested secular observers. And no disinterested secular observer can find anything particularly special about the alter, aside from the fact that it can be seen from most of the church. But that is also true for a great many other places in the church.

Putting the whole shit on YouTube is another story but not less offensive

So putting a song you don't like on YouTube should be illegal?

to ridicule believes

Appeal to faith is not a valid argument.

of so many millions of people

Appeal to popularity is not a valid argument.

pointing what they ( those few so called artist, huh, fucking their political position in the museum before) happen to think about " God's shit" is definitely criminal act.

Ah, so you do want to make it a crime to upload a song you don't like on YouTube.

Thank you for clearing that up. You must be on Medieval Savings Time - when it's 12:00 in London, it's 1200 AD where you live.

Question: Do you support criminalizing drawings of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Do you support criminalizing videos that insult Bush the Lesser? No? Then on what basis do you want to criminalize the particular videos that offend you?

They can do that in public hall tho (if they pay to rent it for their performance) and still some of believers or church can sue them.

Ah, so you want to make it illegal to sing songs you don't like.

Wonderful. Do you also want it to be illegal to wear provocative clothing, or to push elevator buttons on Saturdays? To get a divorce? For two men to kiss in public?

Where does your privilege to not have your parochial religious feelings "offended" end, and my freedom to not have to live in a fucking theocracy begin? And who gets to decide that?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a historical site, and as such belong to all the people.  

Wishful thinking. You have lost touch with reality.

The eyes of believers do not matter. Only the eyes of disinterested secular observers.

And there is the core of our disagreement. There you say that we are not free to our beliefs. Only secularity is, if you have your will.

by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:35:12 AM EST
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It is a historical site, and as such belong to all the people.  
Wishful thinking. You have lost touch with reality.
The cathedral is not owned by the church, which rents out space on the premises.


If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:39:52 AM EST
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Well, the reality is that as far as the majority of the population goes, we're still in the 18th century. Allowing Enlightenment political philosophy to inform your opinion on how society works may indeed lead to detachment from reality, sadly. Actual politics is a constant source of reality checks.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:46:25 AM EST
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It is a historical site, and as such belong to all the people.

Wishful thinking. You have lost touch with reality.

So you want to exclude anti-Communists from protesting at war memorials for the Great Patriotic War?

Now, that's something that would actually deeply insult me. Does that mean I get the right to sue? Or is "deeply and sincerely insulted" only the standard for determining whether religious bigots get to sue?

And there is the core of our disagreement. There you say that we are not free to our beliefs. Only secularity is, if you have your will.

You are perfectly free to have your beliefs. That's called freedom of religion.

You're not free to demand that I submit to them. That's called theocracy.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:47:00 AM EST
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What is that meant to be? Are Russian war memorials rented out to the communist party or what are you talking about?
by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:26:27 AM EST
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Does the Orthodox Church pay rent for using the church outside service hours? Do they pay the going market rate for square footage in central Moskva?

If they don't, then they are in receipt of an implicit state subsidy, and as such no different in any respect from any state-funded war memorial. They shouldn't get to discriminate even if they owned the place or paid market rent, of course, but at least that would be a problem with private property privileges rather than with religious discrimination.

But does it matter to your argument at all? I thought you were arguing that the real crime was offending religious feelings. Does the validity of religious feelings hinge on whose property the offense is made from?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:44:23 AM EST
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The church is space for the exercise of religion. You don't like that, and that's why you always pretend it was public space.

If you want to construe an analogy with war memorials, then where the hell IS the analogy?

by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:58:00 AM EST
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So they pay full market rent for full and exclusive use of the square footage?

Because otherwise you're really stretching when you argue for rules of the church that don't apply to publicly funded war memorials.

Unless, of course, you think that religion should get special treatment over any other form of political party or social get-together.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:09:49 AM EST
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Let's think about memorials a moment, though.

Yad Vashem  certainly is a memorial. What would happen if a group of Israeli Arabs would stage a protest there?

memorials while generally open to the public, are not public spaces in the sense that you can stage political demonstrations there.
And I don't really think the ownership of the cathedral on Moscow is relevant any how. The church seems to be the only and the permanent user and the owner is some foundation for the rebuilding of the cathedral.

by IM on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:30:44 AM EST
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memorials while generally open to the public, are not public spaces in the sense that you can stage political demonstrations there.

That very much depends on your jurisdiction.

And it's a silly rule in those jurisdictions that have it.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:36:48 AM EST
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This would actually be more appropriate that you realize given the bad taste (to give them the benefit of the doubt) of the selection of the location of Yad Vashem. From Yad Vashem, you can get a very good view of Deir Yassin.
It is unfortunate that so few Palestinians visit Yad Vashem. Understandably, many argue that they were not involved in the Holocaust and resent hearing again about Jews as victims of Nazis when the whole world has so long failed to recognize Palestinians as victims of Zionists. Many also believe that the Holocaust was (mis)used as a justification or rationalization for the creation of the state of Israel and for the conquest and confiscation of their homes and villages. Nevertheless, it is unfortunate because from Yad Vashem, looking north, is a spectacular panoramic view of Deir Yassin. The Holocaust museum is beautiful and the message "never to forget man's inhumanity to man" is timeless. The children's museum is particularly heart wrenching; in a dark room filled with candles and mirrors the names of Jewish children who perished in the Holocaust are read along with their places of birth. Even the most callous person is brought to tears. Upon exiting this portion of the museum a visitor is facing north and looking directly at Deir Yassin. There are no markers, no plaques, no memorials, and no mention from any tour guide. But for those who know what they are looking at, the irony is breathtaking.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 01:06:07 PM EST
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