Religion, Atheism, Moral, Politic, PR and all that mess | 533 comments (533 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

I do not see any problems here...Religion is mentioned amongst ideology, moral etc. And you are even protected of coercion...What is wrong there? Is it the fact that you are ALSO free to be religious as well as atheist?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 1)

The fact that is mentioned separately and has its own special code of protection.

Protection of ideological freedom has not been developed in its own law.

Also, did you notice the bit where the law explicitly says that "protection of religious freedom" does not extend to "humanistic or spiritual values which are not religious"?

So, riddle me that. What, specifically, is the part of religion which is not about spiritual values and yet justifies special protection as religion?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:31:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

In what you put here I do not see special law or code that protects religion.
Rather I see that you are FREE to be or NOT to be religious...what more you can ask for...

So, implicitly, "religion" and "worship" are a separate category from "ideology" since protection of ideology doesn't suffice.

What do you mean? Religion IS separate category from ideology and ideology has been mentioned in that same sentence. Nothing wrong there.

There is no equivalent protection of the right to have your child educated free of pseudoscience.

Hah you really know how to twist things. As a parent you can choose where and how to educate your child. What else do you want? You can exempt your child from religious classes if you want so why would you scrap right of those religious that want their kids to attend them? And you are privileged because religious parent CAN'T excuse his child from classes that teach Darwinism.

Religion is, again, not opinion, nor covered under "other personal or social condition or circumstance".

Oh that's what bothers you...you want religion to totally disappear from law...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

In what you put here I do not see special law or code that protects religion.

Can you read?

Non-religious groups are explicitly, in so many words, denied protections which are extended to religious groups.

Rather I see that you are FREE to be or NOT to be religious...what more you can ask for...

That any and all laws protecting religious sentiments apply equally to collectors of horse porn, or not at all.

Including the right to appoint teachers in schools.

What do you mean? Religion IS separate category from ideology

Not when preachers preach partisan political propaganda from the pulpit.

Only totally and utterly apolitical religion is in any way distinguishable from a political ideology.

As a parent you can choose where and how to educate your child.

No. You can't. At least not according to this law.

You have the inalienable right to choose religious indoctrination. You don't have the inalienable right to choose no religious indoctrination.

Gee, difference.

What else do you want? You can exempt your child from religious classes if you want so why would you scrap right of those religious that want their kids to attend them?

I don't.

I just want them to (a) pay for them themselves, and (b) not use school buildings for it.

If you have a hard time seeing why that's reasonable and obvious demands, then you really need to buy a ticket to the 21st century.

And you are privileged because religious parent CAN'T excuse his child from classes that teach Darwinism.

There are no classes that teach "Darwinism."

And if you can't tell the difference between classes to teach children science and classes to indoctrinate them into a particular religious sect, then you need to open your fucking eyes and look at an almanac to see what year we're in.

Oh that's what bothers you...you want religion to totally disappear from law...

I don't see anything about religion which requires any protection not accorded free assembly, free speech, free association and freedom from discrimination on grounds of exercising any of the above.

And since there is no actual religious activity that doesn't fall within one or more of those protections, explicit reference to religion is either superfluous, and should therefore not be made where concision is valued, or it indicates that religious prejudice is set above free assembly, free speech, free association and non-discrimination on grounds of the above. Which is totally, utterly and absolutely unacceptable.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:05:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 1)

Religious indoctrination in education is constitutionally protected. However, there is no constitutional right to an education in the natural sciences free from, say, flat earthers, evolution deniers, or other pseudoscience.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:34:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

You are twisting things and hard. Yes you are protected and even privileged as I said above. You have a choice...that's your protection. What you want is to take that choice for those who do not follow your ideology.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:54:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 1)

No, I'm not, I'm quoting

The public authorities guarantee the right of parents to ensure that their children receive religious and moral instruction in accordance with their own convictions.

There is no specific language anywhere to guarantee the right to ensure children receive evidence-based natural science instruction.

There is general language to protect the right to education. And then the constition drafters feel the need to make an explicit mention of the right to religious indoctrination.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

Maybe but it is already there well established in practice of education.
Same way I can argue that I have not protection for my child to be exposed to Darwinism...all tho you are protected for your child to attend compulsory religion classes.
Do not get me wrong I have nothing against science as such and I do not see antagonism between science and God ( as churches and many of them used to preach for centuries). It was wrong. Science can be very wrong too often.We are witnessing how thanks to new developments in science science itself corrects itself.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

Maybe but it is already there well established in practice of education.

Appeal to tradition is not a valid argument.

Same way I can argue that I have not protection for my child to be exposed to Darwinism

Appeal to pseudoscience is not a valid argument.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:19:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

Appeal to tradition is not a valid argument.

Custom is one of the wellsprings of law, though.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

"It's the law" isn't, in and of itself, a valid argument either.

It's also against Swiss law to publish the names and account statements of tax frauds. That's not an argument for not doing it, it's an argument for making sure you get paid well enough that you never have to go back to Switzerland again.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

"It's the law" isn't, in and of itself, a valid argument either.

That depends on the frame you're arguing in.

Natural rights? Legal positivism? Others?

But the choice of frame is at the level of conviction. Once you ascertain that (say) you're a legal positivist and the other guy is a natural rights advocate, that's pretty much the end of productive discussion.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

"It's the law" can be trivially refuted by reducto ad absurdum: The law is not always consistent, so A and NOT(A) can be illegal at the same time. Meaning it can't be a valid argument in any frame that does not recognize copious use of special pleading as a valid argument.

(As a corollary, any authoritarian frame has to rely on special pleading for those cases where the authority - being human, and therefore imperfectly consistent - makes both A and NOT(A) taboo at the same time.)

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:45:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

"their children receive religious and moral instruction in accordance with their own convictions."

That seems to give the parents the right to educate their children according to their own convictions.

If "an education in the natural sciences free from, say, flat earthers, evolution deniers, or other pseudoscience". is part of their own moral convictions, I don't see the problem.

by IM on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 1)

But then you have to argue that evidence-based natural science is a moral conviction.

And then we're back to trying Galileo in a religious court for the temerity of looking at the world with his own eyes and drawing rational conclusions.

So, from an epistemological point of view, the law protects faith and doesn't protect evidence.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:58:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

So it isn't your moral conviction that evidence based science should be taught?

It certainly is one of my moral convictions.

by IM on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:06:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

It may be the conclusion of this whole debate that yes, politics reduces to moral conviction in the final analysis. Even the role of evidence depends on having the conviction that it plays a role.

And once a discussion gets to the point of ascertaining that the discussants have different convictions, maybe it's time to stop it as no more light will come out of the heat. as in this case.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:27:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

I don't get your position on this.

Let me reformulate the constitution:

Parents have the right to expose their children to evidence based science.

What is gained in this expression that is not already included in "their convictions"?

by IM on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 1)

Nothing. Children should have the right to be exposed to evidence-based education.

In principle, I'm not sure what's gained by giving parent the power to indoctrinate children in their own convictions.

Except that your wording would allow parents to fight a state school teacher who peddled prejudices not based on evidence in a science class.

Private schools are, of course, a different matter. If you don't like sectarian teaching don't take your child to a sectarian school. Which is why those kinds of legal protections of parent's rights to a particular kind of education for their children imply the need for state schools where the appropriate teaching is delivered.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:50:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (4.00 / 2)

In principle, I'm not sure what's gained by giving "parent the power to indoctrinate children in their own convictions."

That is another question regarding the balance of the power of the state to educate children and the parents power to educate children.

And this right to determine the religious and moral education according to their convictions only makes sense in context of a state education system.

So you interpret this article as a right of parents to interfere with state education of their children only in the realms of religious and moral education, but not in all other school subjects.

So they couldn't complain about teaching of creationism in biology because this is not a religious or moral subject.

Yes, that is an plausible interpretation.

I interpreted moral convictions probably to generous. Is someone tried to argue that proper science education was part of his moral convictions it probably wouldn't work.

by IM on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 08:05:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

But the article doesn't say "education on the basis of moral convictions", it says "religious and moral education on the basis of their convictions".

So generic "convictions" are protected, but only in the realm of "religious education".

Anyway, let's quote the full article for context:

Section 27 1. Everyone has the right to education.
Freedom of teaching is recognised.
2.    Education shall aim at the full development of human personality with due respect for the democratic principles of coexistence and for basic rights and freedoms.

The public authorities guarantee the right of parents to ensure that their children receive religious and moral instruction in accordance with their own convictions.

Elementary education is compulsory and free.

The public authorities guarantee the right of all to education, through general education programming, with the effective parti- cipation of all sectors concerned and the setting-up of educational centres.

6.    The right of individuals and legal entities to set up educational centres is recognised, provided they respect constitutional principles.
7.    Teachers, parents and, when appropriate, pupils shall participate in the control and management of all centres supported by the Administration out of public funds, under the terms established by the law.
8.    The public authorities shall inspect and standardise the educational system in order to ensure compliance with the laws.
9. The public authorities shall help the educational centres which meet the requirements established by the law.
10.    The autonomy of Universities is recog- nised, under the terms established by the law.

[PDF from Spain's Congress]

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 08:12:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 1)

I[f] someone tried to argue that proper science education was part of his moral convictions it probably wouldn't work.

That's interesting. Why?

(I actually agree, but you're the lawyer :-)

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 08:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no. (none / 0)

"their children receive religious and moral instruction in accordance with their own convictions."

That seems to give the parents the right to educate their children according to their own convictions.

But only in the realm of religious and moral instruction. In other realms, the parents' convictions don't matter, apparently?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Religion, Atheism, Moral, Politic, PR and all that mess | 533 comments (533 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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