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Only that nobody has defended blasphemy laws here... No matter for you, you can't be bothered to distinguish blasphemy laws, laws to protect the exercise of religion, or libel laws. All you are interested in is your missionary zeal as a secular.
by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're defending the right to prosecute on the basis of offending the feelings of believers.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:44:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
exactly. As opposed to blasphemy.
by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:31:05 AM EST
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Oh, goodie. You admit that you advocate censorship on no basis other than that it offends religious people.

Get on the train to the 21st century, will you, because you're obviously stuck somewhere in the 18th.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, goodie. You admit that you advocate censorship on no basis other than that it offends religious people.

I do not see it like that. Censorship is one thing , prosecuting people for wrong doing is the other.
And doing this in this particular way inside of the church is wrong.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Prosecuting people for offending other people's sensibilities is censorship. No two ways about it.

And again, what actual actions did they do inside the church which should be a crime? (Aside from defacing a building, which we obviously agree on.)

You still haven't told me whether you think heathens praying in church should be a crime, and how you're going to prove that they're heathens without invoking general habitus which is not in itself criminal.

Heresy trials FTW. Welcome back to the 17th century.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:28:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny. If you disagree with a law you call it censorship. Are laws against racist hate speech censorship too?
by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:09:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are laws against incitement to violence and there are laws against offending people. And then there are the laws protecting personality (from personal insult, defamation, etc).

So inciting people to burn down a church is not the same as insulting churchgoers, which is not the same as saying Mother of God, Virgin, become a feminist in front of the churchgoers.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:13:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to be technical about it, yes.

If you want to be technical about it, quotas for women on corporate boards is discrimination.

If you want to be technical about it, requiring employers to have a union contract with a real union is a restriction of their freedom of association (at least that's what the court in Strassburg thinks).

But of course in the real world, the point of hate speech laws is not to censor honest opinion, it is to prevent a politically and socially dominant group from intimidating and legitimizing violence, discrimination or repression against a politically and socially dominated group.

It is, in other words, about redressing an imbalanced power relationship between non-state actors.

Which is totally irrelevant to a Russian punk band offending the Russian Orthodox Church, because the Orthodox Church is the dominant, and punk culture the dominated, group in that power relationship.

This should not be difficult to understand. But apparently it is.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only that nobody has defended blasphemy laws here...

vbo is.

No matter for you, you can't be bothered to distinguish blasphemy laws, laws to protect the exercise of religion, or libel laws. All you are interested in is your missionary zeal as a secular.

I have never complained about religious people suing according to the ordinary libel laws that are open to everyone (well, I have complained about the British libel laws, but that's a problem with the British libel laws in general, not special treatment of religious bigots).

The thing is: When they sue according to the real libel law, they almost invariably lose.

I never complained about laws protecting public gatherings and free association for any purpose, including the exercise of religion. What I complain about is religions demanding extra-special privileges which are not extended to trade unions, tennis players and collectors of horse porn.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only that nobody has defended blasphemy laws here...

vbo is.

??? If you call me mentioning how I feel offended by few porno stars (calling themselves artists ???) naming my religious feelings "God's shit", than yes.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
??? If you call me mentioning how I feel offended by few porno stars (calling themselves artists ???) naming my religious feelings "God's shit", than yes.

I don't object to you being offended.

I object to your offensive, narcissistic obsession that offending you must be made a criminal act.

Your words (bold mine):

Putting the whole shit on YouTube is another story but not less offensive...to ridicule believes of so many millions of people pointing what they ( those few so called artist, huh, fucking their political position in the museum before) happen to think about " God's shit" is definitely criminal act.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:12:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I object to your offensive, narcissistic obsession that offending you must be made a criminal act.

If it is just me it would not be necessary. But we are talking about quite a few millions of people...

And let me tell what I object about your view and your so called "progressive" group of people who are minority in practically all societies. I object your offensive, narcissistic obsession with telling everyone what to think and feel and trying to define for everyone what moral, intelligence etc. is in your narrow view.
People are different and in this time in many places free to think and feel what they want (or it seems to be the case to degree). So live with it. As they say "live and let others live". You as atheists are protected enough and just live with a fact that others can have protection too, not necessarily sharing your view.Respect and tolerance...that's what we need.
I wouldn't like PR for simple case of bad taste anyway so even if they had good message to share they would be irrelevant in my eyes. Putin made a mistake of making them martyrs.I can't see how they can make any advance for your ideology...unless it is because you like porn...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:32:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it is just me it would not be necessary. But we are talking about quite a few millions of people...

So let's have an auto da fe in a public square, then. Or a lynching.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:42:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it is just me it would not be necessary. But we are talking about quite a few millions of people...

Appeal to popularity is not a valid argument.

And let me tell what I object about your view and your so called "progressive" group of people who are minority in practically all societies. I object your offensive, narcissistic obsession with telling everyone what to think and feel

I'm not telling you what to feel.

I'm telling you that mere feelings are not valid arguments for prosecuting people.

People are different and in this time in many places free to think and feel what they want (or it seems to be the case to degree). So live with it.

I have nothing against you thinking and feeling anything you like.

I object to you wanting to use the courts to force me to agree with you.

As they say "live and let others live".

Quite.

Seems like the Russian courts did not get that memo.

You as atheists are protected enough

But not equally as well as religious people.

I guess that "separate but equal" is OK in your mind.

and just live with a fact that others can have protection too,

I object to a "protection from being insulted," because that means that the most reactionary prude (or the millionth most reactionary prude - same shit) gets to define the limits of legal speech.

Respect and tolerance...that's what we need.

Tolerance I quite agree with. But apparently, in your view "tolerance" does not extend to punk bands uploading YouTube videos?

Respect, as I've said before, is something you earn. And the Russian Orthodox Church hasn't earned any.

I can't see how they can make any advance for your ideology...unless it is because you like porn...

The Russian Orthodox Church is a reactionary political organization, and as such my enemy. Any nonviolent action which harms the Russian Orthodox Church therefore has my full support.

Liking porn has nothing to do with it (not that there is anything wrong with liking porn, though I don't think I'd share Pussy Riot's tastes in that genre).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is nothing wrong in you/or PR hating Russian Orthodox Church.And you can attack it at wish using lawful tactics.
Any nonviolent action

PR violated Church's property and rules for their goals so how is this not violent. Do they need to kill someone?

Oh I am getting tired and I start to sound to my self as an echo. It is enough for now unless we have something new to say on this...Obviously there is no way for us to come to any conclusion here. Not even that we "agree on disagreeing"...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 08:05:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the contrary, we're very close to clearly delineating everyone's frames and, given that this is a clash of frames, agree to disagree. The disagreement is not actually about the facts of the Pussy Riot case. It's the frame through which the facts are interpreted. And the difference in frame through which to interpret evidence is invulnerable (almost by definition) to evidence.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 08:16:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is nothing wrong in you/or PR hating Russian Orthodox Church.And you can attack it at wish using lawful tactics.

I'll ask again, since neither you nor Katrin has ever provided a clear and unambiguous answer to this question: Which of Pussy Riot's precise, concret acts inside the church should be illegal?

Don't give me vague generalities about intent and insincerity. Concrete, actionable actions only.

Oh, and you never did give a clear and unambiguous answer to the question of whether it should be criminal to upload a YouTube video with a song you don't like set to background footage of a church. Should it?

PR violated Church's property and rules for their goals so how is this not violent.

Um, because violence requires you to actually, you know, cause bodily harm to somebody.

Do they need to kill someone?

No, slapping somebody would suffice.

Disrespecting the subsidized property privileges of the church... not so much.

Not even that we "agree on disagreeing"...

No, "agree to disagree" is not a possible outcome when one side insists on demanding that the courts repress the other side.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 08:17:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have never complained about religious people suing according to the ordinary libel laws that are open to everyone

Yes, you have. The complaint, possibly charge, but not conviction in the Kissing Pope Photo Affair which you cited excessively and falsely for the power of the Vatican suppressing political speech.

by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that complaint was clearly about offending the religious feelings of Catholics, and attacking the dignity of the Pope.

At least that's what the Vatican claimed they were suing over. Again, I don't read Italian, so I don't know whether the Vatican was lying in its press release (admittedly a strong possibility - the Vatican does tend to lie like a rug).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 06:53:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The BBC article YOU linked to in your pathetic attempt to prove that political speech about the pope was prosecuted does not bear that out:

The Vatican statement said the ad was "damaging to not only to dignity of the pope and the Catholic Church but also to the feelings of believers"

So, if you have information what the actual complaint was about (if any), how about sharing it?

by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:16:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't. But the quote you cited proves my point: The Vatican's lawyers clearly think that offending the Pope justifies a frivolous lawsuit.

I disagree.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:21:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You said the law was on the Vatican's side in this point. Which isn't true. So this was a complaint about personality rights: is it legal to show the kissing and twist the meaning a bit?

Additionally the Vatican claimed that Catholics were offended by a connection of their pope and the notion of sex, especially gay sex. They had to find the hard way that after the child abuse scandal this is no longer true. This will doubtless influence their decisions when to lodge complaints in future.

by Katrin on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, considerations of realpolitik makes the Papacy less trigger-happy with the frivolous lawsuits against people who piss off the Pope.

The Thirty Years War also made the Papacy less trigger-happy with prosecuting heresy. That doesn't make the existence of statutes against heresy not-a-problem.

Either they are not invoked, and can therefore be excised without loss of generality. Or they are invoked, and must therefore be excised to protect the human rights of heretics and blasphemers.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 07:48:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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