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I am moving this from the old thread here:

Eurogreen:

Interestingly enough, your religious-inspired values appear to be sufficiently compatible with those of secular humanists to make discussion possible

Yes. Our values here in Europe have been shaped by philosophical and theological thought in the Church(es). Humanism didn't evolve in a philosophical vacuum, it is standing on the shoulders of older thought.

Oddly, you seem to imply or presume that this is the general case for religious-inspired political activists. Would that it were so!
What about the USA? Russia? Iran?

I've tried it. Engaged US American religious nutters and market taliban in debate. They squeaked and whined and became blue in the face and ran out of arguments quickly. If humans were created godlike, is there any justification to show less respect (and that includes some material aspects) to a disabled person than to God? Theologically there is only one answer to that: Christianity is not compatible with free marketism.  

by Katrin on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 09:38:15 AM EST
Humanism didn't evolve in a philosophical vacuum, it is standing on the shoulders of in opposition to older thought.

FIFY.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 09:46:18 AM EST
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Both, and that's how it should be.
by Katrin on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 09:48:41 AM EST
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Man is the measure of all things vs. God is the measure of all things.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:10:40 AM EST
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Yes, but if man is the measure of all things, why?
by Katrin on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:26:20 AM EST
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Because. It's an ideology.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:31:26 AM EST
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A faith
by Katrin on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:33:24 AM EST
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Whatever. Not entitled to legal protection on the basis of being one.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:34:23 AM EST
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An ideology.

A faith.

A narrative.

A frame.

An axiom.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:35:32 AM EST
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Religious nutters... Well, quite. You have engaged in a spirited and courageous blanket defense of religious-inspired political activism, illustrating it with your personal values of tolerance etc...
The problem is that, worldwide, at a WAG, 90% of religious-inspired political activists are right-wingers, often extreme right wingers, and almost always with a strong authoritarian bent. (The patriarch Kirill, Putin's pal, is a case in point.)

I have no intention of according special political privileges to such people (or to you) because they are religious.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:31:23 AM EST
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They are right-wing authoritarians. See altemeyer.

He makes the point that in the former Soviet block the right wing authoritarian were authoritarian followers of the state communism ideology. That didn't make religious dissidents necessarily left-wing, because the Russian Orthodox Church remained throughout just a different right-wing authoritarian structure, just one out of power. In some former communist countries the local church continued to be tolerated and so provided a haven for left wing dissidents (in the vein of liberation theology, I suppose, but it would be interesting to study what fraction of the left-wing dissidents who operated under the church umbrella while in opposition to state communism remain within the church fold for their left-wing politics after the fall of the communist regime liberated the church hierarchy to be the right-wing authoritarians overtly).

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 10:41:41 AM EST
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Which country are you thinking of? I think especially Poland is an example of the local Church surviving as a force but remaining right-wing during communism; while the Lutheran church in Eastern Germany is an example of a haven for left wing dissidents whose hierarchy did not transform into a right-wing authoritarian club.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2012 at 07:08:30 PM EST
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Er ...
Religion, specifically Christianity, in Western Europe is tolerable to non-adherents because we've had 500 years of telling it to go stand in a corner when it misbehaves.
by Number 6 on Fri Aug 31st, 2012 at 08:14:41 AM EST
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'fee-market christianity' and 'christian free-marketing' are a frankensteinian hybrid mutant that got out the lab and are now chomping down on anything that we hold dear and sacred moves.

this has turned into a very interesting vintage ET discussion. both katrin and jake are doing an impressive brinking dance around incivility.

elegant calibration...

/meta

religion is the straw man here though, this goes deeper even, to the rights of people to private spaces to gather in, the line between public/private, whether dissent is ever polite to everyone, and the ugly underbelly of soft fascism, 2012 style.

PR serve to show very well how 'soft' that really is.

the older democracies have really screwed the pooch by throwing away so many of our own civil rights, putin's still catching up.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Sep 2nd, 2012 at 05:17:31 AM EST
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