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So again you resort to special pleading. Your objection is really different from Putin's and the Patriarch's objections, but my objection is not really different Ralf Pittelkow's objection. Because you say so, apparently.
- Jake Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
I'm stating that "people being offended" is not a valid basis for prosecution in a court of law, due to the reducto ad absurdum of such a trial being extremely offensive to some subset of the population. And therefore, under the "offending people is illegal" standard, the trial itself is grounds for prosecution of the prosecutor.
Unless, of course, only religious people are entitled to take offensive speech to court. Which is, of course, what you are consistently arguing, even if you dress it up in morphing ad hoc definitions that let you pretend that you're not arguing against equal protection.
No, I'm not denying that people were offended
But you are denying (or shrugging off) that people other than members of clerical hierarchies and Putin were offended. You don't want to admit that the actions you find fine offend ordinary people whom progressives would like to have as allies.
I'm stating that "people being offended" is not a valid basis for prosecution in a court of law, due to the reducto ad absurdum of such a trial being extremely offensive to some subset of the population.
There are much larger subsets of the Russian population who would handle the PR affair in the same way the Lebanese population handled the cartoon affair. If you manage to prevent lawsuits that doesn't mean that the offended people are prevented from all agency... Is that what you want?
But somehow the offense I take is less important than the offense you take. I wonder why.
The only equitable way to deal with people being offended at people being offended is to not make "being offended" a valid legal basis for prosecution.
There are much larger subsets of the Russian population who would handle the PR affair in the same way the Lebanese population handled the cartoon affair.
The proper response to that is and was sending the federal police to impose some overlong delayed civilization on that substantial part of the population.
If you manage to prevent lawsuits that doesn't mean that the offended people are prevented from all agency... Is that what you want?
And I want offended people who are not willing to refrain from resorting to violence to express their offense locked up in a psychiatric institution next to Anders Breivik.
I'm offended by Pussy Riot being put on trial for exercising their inalienable right to free speech.
Fortunately there is no such thing as that right in Europe. We don't want the incitement of hatred here. Take your barbarian free speech back to the US where it belongs.
Hell. You are really shocking me. I am European.
I am also more than a little disturbed by your apparent refusal to totally, unambiguously and unequivocally condemn any and all risk of violence that might have arisen against Pussy Riot if they had not been put through a formal witch trial.
So we have to allow people prone to violent reactions to dictate the law so they don't react violently? If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
In none of the cases under discussion did the "offenders" accost or pursue the "offended" with the intent to cause them distress. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
If driven far enough we all are prone to violent reactions.
I'm just saying it should also be if the contents of the video are blasphemous.
Unless it's a part of a wide-spread, long-term campaign of harassment. Which Pussy Riot is not, except in the deluded fantasies of conspiracy merchants.
Mind, there are cases where a line must be drawn. Where it is difficult to decide which behaviour to criminalise and which not. This doesn't apply here, because the performance was in a church.
The standard you repeatedly appeal to - consistently with the outrage being about the YouTube video rather than anything that happened in the church - is "offends religious sentiments." Blasphemy offends the religious sentiments of many people. Therefore, criminalization of blasphemy is a subset of the standard you propose.
You further propose that any building that a religious group uses for its occasional get-togethers should be subject to religious law at all other time, no matter its wider historical, aesthetic, cultural or architectural significance. That is a monopolization of cultural heritage which I frankly also find objectionable.
Mind, there are cases where a line must be drawn. Where it is difficult to decide which behaviour to criminalise and which not.
Because we're assuming that if it comes to that, the judge presiding over a court case should be described as disinterested (and, therefore, secular). If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
There is a name for the sort of society where there are different kinds of courts for different religious or ethnic groups, and you cannot appeal to a universal standard of jurisprudence. We call such a society "apartheid."
There is also a name for societies which raise the prejudices of a single religious group to the level of universal standard of jurisprudence. We call such a society "theocracy."
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, sparked a stormy debate when he appeared to suggest that some aspects of Sharia law should be adopted in the UK.
Then again, some elements of Sharia are already in European legal codes. Because Sharia contains a bunch of commonsense rules that every society needs, and which, therefore, the Sharia contains alongside all the bonkers stuff.
Apparently I was mistaken, and the European solution to wars of religion is self-censorship and closeting of minority beliefs. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
But that's the most important rationale behind this sort of legislation: to maintain peaceful relations in society. It's not only the injury of hate speech or the danger that this develops into physical violence. It's the reaction too that is prevented by putting a lid on all this.
Besides, the security risk is very real - pride parades all over eastern Europe have been attacked with broken bottles and worse. So if "religious fanatics might use violence to silence Pussy Riot" is a good enough reason to silence Pussy Riot, then "religious fanatics have demonstrated that they will use violence to silence pride parades" must be an even better reason to ban the latter.
That'll be a joy for parliament to write.
Claiming that they do is obviously frivolous, and in the pertinent cases clearly motivated by religious bigotry.
Holy unfalsifiable hypothesis, Batman.
That definitely has a chilling effect. Of course it doesn't succeed in censoring the content, but it succeeds in harassing the author.
But since, as a Lutheran, you're an iconoclast, you don't care. While you do care about the Danish cartoon controversy.
How confusing. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
Mind, I do not deny that there are laws that ought to be abolished: all blasphemy laws for instance. Or laws forcing religion on all schoolchildren.
For that matter, what was the cartoon jihad about if not blasphemy?
A campaign to incite hatred against immigrants and Muslims. By the way, it was not against any law. A pity. Humiliating Muslims is legal. You are aware that your argument of protection for a minority applies here, aren't you? Astonishing that you support this despicable campaign.
However, in this particular case it must be weighted against the equally legitimate argument that people were attempting to enforce a blanket ban on pictorial depiction of a historical figure. Such a blanket ban must be opposed, because it is far too wide reaching to legitimately claim to be concerned with hate speech.
I find the latter argument more persuasive. The mullahs were not demanding legitimate protection from hate speech. They were demanding the intrusion of an extremist caricature of Islam into general society.
The fact that legitimate and proper backlash against the meritless intrusion of backwards religious dogmatism into secular society creates an opportunity for racist hate speech when the meritless intrusion is committed by an oppressed minority is regrettable, but probably not avoidable. Unless you want to give oppressed minorities a blank check to engage in any or all antidemocratic behavior simply because they are an oppressed minority. Which is a bridge I am not quite prepared to cross.
In any event, the Russian Orthodox Church obviously cannot claim the need for any such protection. Rather, it is Pussy Riot which can clearly claim the need for protection from the Russian Orthodox Church.
Now we can discuss clitoris ablation for another 400 comments. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
I have actually quoted the applicable law in the subthread.
I can't fathom what this video does with the feeling of Catholics
It mocks the Descent from the Cross, the Stigmata, the Holy Sepulchre and the Resurrection. Apart from proposing actually eating a Christ. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
Apart from proposing actually eating a Christ.
they got anticipated on that one... 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
Sigh. I'll try and find it in this jungle.
Er, what is wrong with that?
So it all appears to come down to whether you share the personal outrage. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
Hint: the Krahe case discussion starts in its own top-level comment, joking about taking a poll. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
I don't remember whether the parish sued over this gross mistreatment of their holy cracker. But several parishioners did threaten to put the kid in a hospital.
FIFY.
Examples of actions that hurt religious feelings, and therefore would be criminal under the standard you propose, are germane to the discussion.
But of course since those campaigns of censorship were successful, you are now going to deny that they were motivated or successful based on religious bigotry.
The cock-cross was blasphemy. We are in agreement there: scrap all blasphemy laws.
Cooking Christ: Possibly. I expect Mig will enlighten us what law that was. So possibly you can cite one single case in all of Europe, namely in Spain, which has not yet gotten rid of all ghosts of Franquism, and is perhaps not THAT representative for all Europe. And even that ended in an acquittal.
The leaking pope is citing protection of his privacy,
Further, the fact that this particular picture, and only this, was pulled, despite many similarly baseless challenges to the magazine, supports the contention that the Papacy gets special treatment. De facto if not de jure.
Compare the photos of Merkel's naked arse, which were printed in Britain, but not in Germany.)
Considering that the Catholic Church is a transnational corporation with an annual profit comparable to the GDP of a small country, that outcome is not reassuring at all: The church can afford to sponsor such a lawsuit every day until the heat death of the universe and not even make a dent in their propaganda budget.
Also the following cover:
Two days ago, in response to a comment of yours. The plaintiffs were proud that it was the first time anyone was prosecuted under that article of Spanish law. If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
That is not true. public figures still do have personality rights, if somewhat limited.
(I assume that privacy is what is meant when talking about "personality rights" - which sounds like a tradeable commodity, e.g. "You're not allowed to publish my photo in the newspaper, I've sold my personality rights to Fabergé") It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
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