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And even a minority religion can be the target of satire or do you want to make all jewish comedians unemployed?
And no, I reserve the right to critisize the political ideology of islamism. Even if islam the religion is a minority somewhere. That still makes e. g. Mursi a islamist and your misguided denialism doesn't changes that.
If you define : "No longer firebomb us" as submission, you have moved the goalposts
"Us"? There is no "us", I am not a racist. I don't want to be included in that "us". There is absolutely nothing I have in common with the issuers of that stuff.
And no, that's not the definition anyone here uses.
eurogreen:
Nothing from French Islamists so far, nor from any "official" French Muslim source
There. "Nothing". That's total submission.
IM:
These cartoons aren't made by Muslim comedians. They are made by non-Muslims who are issuing a message to Muslims. The equivalent of antisemitic jokes.
And no, I reserve the right to critisize the political ideology of islamism.
Islamism would be a completely different topic. These aren't Mursi cartoons, they are Mohammed cartoons. The message is "Look what a crazy asshole they revere" and "they" clearly is Muslims, not Islamists. Misguided denialism yourself.
But nice that you defend the right of islamists to firebomb others. But that is okay: After all you just quite forcefully othered publishers of satirical magazines and other undesirables.
I think the publishers and writers of this magazine, even if you have for some idiotic and clueless reason decided to declare them heretics, have a right to be not firebombed. That is quite reasonable demand.
If you can't even see that, you have a problem.
And then you are indeed no longer any part of "us", that is of a left dedicated to Enlightenment values.
But nice that you defend the right of islamists to firebomb others.
Do I? Can you point to the post where I did? Are you so desperately out of arguments that you take to misrepresentations?
But that is okay: After all you just quite forcefully othered publishers of satirical magazines and other undesirables.
The publishers of satirical magazines must be held accountable for the dissemination of hate speech like anyone else.
you have for some idiotic and clueless reason decided to declare them heretics
Again: I challenge you to point to the post where I did. You can't. You have invented this claim.
"The publishers of satirical magazines must be held accountable for the dissemination of hate speech like anyone else."
A picture of Mohammed isn't hate speech. And vigilante justice like firebombing isn't the right way to hold someone accountable.
If you really think for some unscrutable reason that they are engaging in hate speech, sue them. That is the proper way to deal with it. Perhaps you could transmit this way of procedure to your new allies on the islamic right?
You have just called them racists. Earlier you have called them xenophobes.
Accusations that I have argued. And where did I call them heretics? Where? If I was arguing heresy or the like, the debate would be completely different. So why the fuck are you claiming that?
A picture of Mohammed isn't hate speech
That depends on the message the picture transports. If pictures can't be hate speech, a cartoon of a banker with hooked nose and vile smirk wouldn't be either. Are you arguing that?
And vigilante justice like firebombing isn't the right way to hold someone accountable.
My own prehistoric activities in front of the Axel-Springer-House don't belong to the wisest things I ever did, but they were a way to hold that media concern accountable. Anyway, all firebombing in reaction to the publication we are discussing here has been invented by you and Jake. When will you get that there was no firebombing?
If you really think for some unscrutable reason that they are engaging in hate speech, sue them. That is the proper way to deal with it.
With what right are you telling me to shut up? Where is your defence of free speech? If I decide it is the proper way to argue against this hate speech, how come you have the last word on it?
Perhaps you could transmit this way of procedure to your new allies on the islamic right?
And now you have not only run out of arguments, you have come completely unglued.
that is called a metaphor. Racists and xenophobes are surely heretics to the left.
"That depends on the message the picture transports. If pictures can't be hate speech, a cartoon of a banker with hooked nose and vile smirk wouldn't be either. Are you arguing that?"
No. Do you argue that every depiction of a banker is hate speech?
Furthermore:
>Controversy arose over the publication's February 9, 2006 edition. Under the title "Mahomet débordé par les intégristes" ("Muhammad overwhelmed by fundamentalists"), the front page showed a cartoon of a weeping Prophet Muhammad saying "C'est dur d'être aimé par des cons" ("it's hard being loved by jerks").<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo#1992.E2.80.932010
That is not hate speech but rather defending Mohammed against his islamist fans.
"My own prehistoric activities in front of the Axel-Springer-House don't belong to the wisest things I ever did, but they were a way to hold that media concern accountable. Anyway, all firebombing in reaction to the publication we are discussing here has been invented by you and Jake. When will you get that there was no firebombing?"
In the early hours of November 2, 2011, the newspaper's office in the 20th arrondissement[8] was fire-bombed and its website hacked.
And regrading Springer - do you really compare the most powerful german media comglomerate and a small satiric paper? bY the way, how did your protest work out?
"With what right are you telling me to shut up? Where is your defence of free speech? If I decide it is the proper way to argue against this hate speech, how come you have the last word on it?"
I have not told you to shut up. I just think you are wrong. That is called having an argument.
"And now you have not only run out of arguments, you have come completely unglued."
You have just argued that a fire-bomb is sometimes a valid way of protest, so I am not so sure who is unglued here.
"These cartoons aren't made by Muslim comedians."
So this paper has just to find a muslim cartoonist? A little affirmative action and everything is fine?
You compare the anti-Muslim campaign to the work of Jewish comedians instead of comparing them to antisemitic jokes, which would be the appropriate parallel.
I just see a satiric magazine standing up for freedom of speech. Attacked by islamists, who you defend for some reason.
South park e. g. made fun of mormons and scientologists. That was funny legitimate and not oppressive or persecution. And South Park is probably a lot more influential then Charlie Hebdo.
Not at all. Charlie Hebdo are defending themselves against attacks from islamists - some violent.
And that being also a defense of free speech should be supported.
They aren't defending themselves at all. They aren't attacked. They are disseminating standard mainstream anti-Muslim racism, and Muslims have no voice.
And that being also a defense of free speech should be supported
There is no freedom for hate speech. And even though this is not hate speech in the legal sense, it functions as hate speech, which is why I criticise Charlie Hebdo's despicable publication. I note that you categorise my speech as an attack on free speech: apparently only anti-Muslim speech is free.
"Muslims have no voice" - I am sure that the muslim media in France has a lot higher circulation numbers then the circulation of Charlie Hebdo. Not the count all the muslim ministers, parliamentarians, mayors civil servants journalist etc. in France. And the official representation of muslim organizations.
"There is no freedom for hate speech."
Define hate speech. Freedom of speech has to include undesirable speech or it isn't much of a freedom.
"And even though this is not hate speech in the legal sense, "
well, in this case where is the problem?
"it functions as hate speech,"
That assertion you should perhaps prove at some time
"which is why I criticise Charlie Hebdo's despicable publication."
You see an despicable publication, I see a rather mild satire and an attempt to assert their right of free speech.
That is at worst ill-advised. Not despicable.
"I note that you categorise my speech as an attack on free speech: apparently only anti-Muslim speech is free."
What anti-muslim speech? And categorizing an satirical publication as hate speech is an attack on free speech. I on the other hand haven't tried to suppress your speech or demanded suppression or whatever.
We've had enough of this repetitive bickering in this thread.
You don't seem to have noticed this comment below.
Jewish comedians satirise Judaism from the inside. I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
When you say
But all comedians satirize from the inside...That's what they do. That's their audience. To the extent that other cultures impinge on the inside, they satirize that too.
you're making statements of fact. Unless we're suppose to interpret everything you say as "I just pulled this out of my ass right now". I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
(to be sure, I think it is okay for the musical to actually contain the song as a way to illustrate the state of opinion in pre-Nazi Germany, though apparently when the stage musical came out it provoked protests from Jewish groups in the US) I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
Interpret the song (by itself, within the musical, and in the fictional universe of the musical) for me. I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
That didn't help him very much.
But in any case, what I-m trying to argue is that precisely because it's done from the inside it would be worthy of defence even if its intent were to provoke, which as far as I know it wasn't. I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
Like the Second Amendment.
But of course provocation was not his primary motive, if a motive at all. His motive was to explain how he came to be, what he had experienced. His sin was to be W*st*rn. You can't be me, I'm taken
Yeah, because he was Indian-born of Kashmiri descent. I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
Anyway, to Islamists it doesn't matters a whit if the critique is from the inside or outside. They are enraged anyway.
Ant you are more and more sliding into a "outside agitator" argument.
With polls.
- Jake Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
If that is true that rather strengthens my argument.
I don't think critique, even provocative critique - and some people are provoked by everything don't need to be from the inside - whatever inside is - to be legitimate.
You probably know the term "outside agitator". Has a lot to do with the definition who inside or outside.
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