Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
"a specific value for other countries"

Nope. There are no exact figures. For Germany there are several specific values. In other words no reliable data, because we don't know how the question of the survey was framed. 3% "feel" they are Muslims. How many members of Muslim communities is that? And what do people mean when they say they are religious? I remember a poll of immigrants who had just arrived (and which I can no longer find). Almost all Poles and Iranians answered they were "very religious". Additional questions and their answers showed that the "very religious" Poles don't necessarily attend a Mass every year, let alone several times, while the "very religious" Iranians didn't necessarily have a prejudice against eating pork.

The only thing we know is that Muslims are a tiny minority in Europe (even if your 5% are accurate, which we can't know).

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Islam en France - Wikipédia Islam in France - Wikipedia
En 2012, Michèle Tribalat a estimé, à partir de l'enquête Trajectoires et origines réalisée par l'INED et l'INSEE en 2008, à 4 millions le nombre de musulmans déclarés (soit 6,8 % de la population de France métropolitaine) et à 4,8 millions le nombre de personnes dont au moins un parent est musulman, soit respectivement 34 % et 41 % de l'ensemble de la population d'origine étrangère (sur deux générations uniquement). Quant aux naissances, toujours d'après l'enquête Trajectoires et origines, pour les enfants nés en 2006-2008, un peu moins de 20 % d'entre eux auraient au moins un parent musulman[93].In 2012, Michele Tribalat was estimated from the survey Trajectories and origins conducted by INED and INSEE in 2008, 4 million the number of Muslims reported (6.8% of the population of metropolitan France ) and 4.8 million the number of people with at least one parent is a Muslim, or 34% and 41% of the total foreign-born population (over two generations only). As for births, still according to the survey Trajectories and origins, a little less than 20% of children born in 2006-2008 have at least one Muslim parent [ 93] .
Les musulmans sont en moyenne plus jeunes et environ la moitié des musulmans de France ont moins de 24 ans. Selon Justin Vaïsse, à Paris, les musulmans représentent un tiers des jeunes de moins de 24 ans. Les villes françaises ou vivent le plus grand nombre de musulmans sont Roubaix, dans la banlieue de Lille (50 % de la population), Marseille (25 %), Besançon (13 %)[94], Paris (10 à 15 %) et Lyon (8 à 12 %)[95]. Ces jeunes d'ascendance musulmane se déclaraient en 1992, à 30 % sans religion (si les deux parents étaient Algériens), voire à 60 % (si un parent seulement était Algérien)[96].Muslims are on average younger and about half of Muslims in France are less than 24 years. According Justin Vaïsse , in Paris, Muslims represent a third of young people under 24 years old. French cities which are home to the largest number of Muslims are Roubaix, in the suburbs of Lille (50% of the population), Marseille (25%), Besançon (13%) [ 94] , Paris (10 to 15%) and Lyon (8 to 12%) [ 95 ] . Young people of Muslim ancestry reported themselves in 1992, 30% no religion (if both parents were Algerians) or 60% (if only one parent was Algerian) [ 96] .

If your point is that the number of Muslims in France, or in Europe, is negligible, that's clearly not the case. They are a significant group, and a growing one, because of differential demographics. That's not a bad thing, but it's a fact. Depending on where one lives, their presence may be invisible, or not. The idea of a separate-but-equal social status, which seems to be the thrust of your argument, hasn't worked out well anywhere, as far as I know. We need to sort out common standards for living together.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:50:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are a significant group, and a growing one, because of differential demographics.

They are definitely a significant group. Definitely not a group with a lot of influence or power though. This means that Muslims are not the danger that Islamophobes claim they are. They are not even able to defend themselves against the many harassments the majority invents.

Conclusions from demographics, not socioeconomics, to religious membership are bullshit. It is possible that the proportion of Muslims in the population grows, but by no means sure.  

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And here is what was meant to be the first part of my post:


The idea of a separate-but-equal social status, which seems to be the thrust of your argument

It is not my argument, not even remotely! Have you read my posts at all?

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:22:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We need to sort out common standards for living together

Yes. Agree completely. That's why I am arguing against a one-sided diktat that bans all personal freedom that is somehow related to the exercise of religion.

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have said :Katrin:
Laws force the women among them to go naked according to their perception, or else they won't be allowed even to learn.

The law in France forbids religious dress in public schools (this is also the case in Turkey and in Indonesia). Dress codes in school are different in various countries; many impose uniforms; the right to impose a dress code is not generally disputed. Completely covering one's hair is apparently sanctioned by the Koran (just as wearing a veil is prescribed for Christian women by the Bible) but is applied in various interpretations, or not at all, by Muslim women in various parts of the world, in accordance with the laws and customs of the countries they live in.

Should children of Muslim families be allowed to choose whether or not to respect French law or custom on this point? Is the notion of choice actually operative here? Is it indeed a matter of personal freedom? In individual cases, that's possible. But sociologically, it's clear that the desire of Muslim families to send their daughters to school with distinctive dress is a question of marking them out as inaccessible, in order to favour endogamy within a community of Muslims (cf the work of demographer Emmanuel Todd on this subject).

I don't think that a cultural tendency towards endogamy actually favours personal freedom.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The law in France, as in all European countries, shows real creativity in finding new ways to discriminate against Muslims. Giving the prevention of endogamy as a justification for a ban on the headscarf is hilarious (and perfidious). I note that your theory only speaks of the intentions of parents, not of the freedom of the girls.

I don't believe we can hash out the headscarf debate in less than 300 posts, Eurogreen. Do we start or not?

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in this thread, please.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The initial misstep is Eurogreen's, since whether to wear a headscarf is rarely the woman's, but patriarch's choice.

Peculiar to hear katrin advocating patriarchal values, but since she's taken a losing position, any port in a storm.

The immigrant minority always faces a choice of getting along or not.

This particular one seems to want self-segregation without adopting any values of the welcoming society. Seems like a misreading of human nature. And I'm not talking about France, or Europe, or the West at all, but the idea of religious freedom, including especially the freedom FROM religions that limit choice.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Sat Jan 12th, 2013 at 10:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point about self-reported "religiosity" is well taken.

The USA tends to show "higher than real" levels of religiosity on this question because "religious" is interpreted as "a good person."
Likely the same holds for more "conservative" parts of the population (which should be mostly anyone immigrating to Central/Western Europe.)

by Number 6 on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:45:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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