Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
They are a significant group, and a growing one, because of differential demographics.

They are definitely a significant group. Definitely not a group with a lot of influence or power though. This means that Muslims are not the danger that Islamophobes claim they are. They are not even able to defend themselves against the many harassments the majority invents.

Conclusions from demographics, not socioeconomics, to religious membership are bullshit. It is possible that the proportion of Muslims in the population grows, but by no means sure.  

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And here is what was meant to be the first part of my post:


The idea of a separate-but-equal social status, which seems to be the thrust of your argument

It is not my argument, not even remotely! Have you read my posts at all?

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:22:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We need to sort out common standards for living together

Yes. Agree completely. That's why I am arguing against a one-sided diktat that bans all personal freedom that is somehow related to the exercise of religion.

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have said :Katrin:
Laws force the women among them to go naked according to their perception, or else they won't be allowed even to learn.

The law in France forbids religious dress in public schools (this is also the case in Turkey and in Indonesia). Dress codes in school are different in various countries; many impose uniforms; the right to impose a dress code is not generally disputed. Completely covering one's hair is apparently sanctioned by the Koran (just as wearing a veil is prescribed for Christian women by the Bible) but is applied in various interpretations, or not at all, by Muslim women in various parts of the world, in accordance with the laws and customs of the countries they live in.

Should children of Muslim families be allowed to choose whether or not to respect French law or custom on this point? Is the notion of choice actually operative here? Is it indeed a matter of personal freedom? In individual cases, that's possible. But sociologically, it's clear that the desire of Muslim families to send their daughters to school with distinctive dress is a question of marking them out as inaccessible, in order to favour endogamy within a community of Muslims (cf the work of demographer Emmanuel Todd on this subject).

I don't think that a cultural tendency towards endogamy actually favours personal freedom.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The law in France, as in all European countries, shows real creativity in finding new ways to discriminate against Muslims. Giving the prevention of endogamy as a justification for a ban on the headscarf is hilarious (and perfidious). I note that your theory only speaks of the intentions of parents, not of the freedom of the girls.

I don't believe we can hash out the headscarf debate in less than 300 posts, Eurogreen. Do we start or not?

by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in this thread, please.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Katrin on Tue Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The initial misstep is Eurogreen's, since whether to wear a headscarf is rarely the woman's, but patriarch's choice.

Peculiar to hear katrin advocating patriarchal values, but since she's taken a losing position, any port in a storm.

The immigrant minority always faces a choice of getting along or not.

This particular one seems to want self-segregation without adopting any values of the welcoming society. Seems like a misreading of human nature. And I'm not talking about France, or Europe, or the West at all, but the idea of religious freedom, including especially the freedom FROM religions that limit choice.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Sat Jan 12th, 2013 at 10:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Occasional Series