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Poitras and Greenwald are not facing any charges, at least not yet. They do not plan to stay away from America forever, but they have no immediate plans to return. One member of Congress has already likened what they've done to a form of treason, and they are well aware of the Obama administration's unprecedented pursuit of not just leakers but of journalists who receive the leaks. While I was with them, they talked about the possibility of returning. Greenwald said that the government would be unwise to arrest them, because of the bad publicity it would create. It also wouldn't stop the flow of information.
I have been struck, when discussing Snowden with American friends, by the fact that many approve what he has done, but think him a coward for not doing it in the USA.
Daniel Ellsberg disagrees
"Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don't agree," Ellsberg writes. "The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago." Ellsberg added, "I hope Snowden's revelations will spark a movement to rescue our democracy, but he could not be part of that movement had he stayed here. There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. Instead, he would be in a prison cell like Bradley Manning, incommunicado."
This makes the position of Poitras and Greenwald very interesting indeed... It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
The way I read this passage, the painful oversight in Greenwald's professionalism was lack of attention to the need for encryption when talking with sources, and thus lack of effort to learn how to do it. Later Snowden chides him for it (in his replies to the NYT reporter):
...At the same time, this is 2013, and [he is] a journalist who regularly reported on the concentration and excess of state power. I was surprised to realize that there were people in news organizations who didn't recognize any unencrypted message sent over the Internet is being delivered to every intelligence service in the world."
More from Snowden quoted later in the article:
"In the wake of this year's disclosure, it should be clear that unencrypted journalist-source communication is unforgivably reckless."
But Poitras got Greenwald up to speed, as Greenwald readily admits:
Greenwald installed encryption software and began communicating with the stranger. Their work was organized like an intelligence operation, with Poitras as the mastermind. "Operational security -- she dictated all of that," Greenwald said. "Which computers I used, how I communicated, how I safeguarded the information, where copies were kept, with whom they were kept, in which places. She has this complete expert level of understanding of how to do a story like this with total technical and operational safety. None of this would have happened with anything near the efficacy and impact it did, had she not been working with me in every sense and really taking the lead in coordinating most of it."
...She showed no emotion and did not mention that she had been in the middle of an encrypted chat with Snowden. At the time, I didn't press her, but a few days later, after I returned to New York and she returned to Berlin, I asked if that's what she was doing that evening. She confirmed it, but said she didn't want to talk about it at the time, because the more she talks about her interactions with Snowden, the more removed she feels from them. "It's an incredible emotional experience," she said, "to be contacted by a complete stranger saying that he was going to risk his life to expose things the public should know. He was putting his life on the line and trusting me with that burden. My experience and relationship to that is something that I want to retain an emotional relation to." Her connection to him and the material, she said, is what will guide her work. "I am sympathetic to what he sees as the horror of the world [and] what he imagines could come. I want to communicate that with as much resonance as possible. If I were to sit and do endless cable interviews -- all those things alienate me from what I need to stay connected to. It's not just a scoop. It's someone's life."
...She showed no emotion and did not mention that she had been in the middle of an encrypted chat with Snowden. At the time, I didn't press her, but a few days later, after I returned to New York and she returned to Berlin, I asked if that's what she was doing that evening. She confirmed it, but said she didn't want to talk about it at the time, because the more she talks about her interactions with Snowden, the more removed she feels from them.
"It's an incredible emotional experience," she said, "to be contacted by a complete stranger saying that he was going to risk his life to expose things the public should know. He was putting his life on the line and trusting me with that burden. My experience and relationship to that is something that I want to retain an emotional relation to." Her connection to him and the material, she said, is what will guide her work. "I am sympathetic to what he sees as the horror of the world [and] what he imagines could come. I want to communicate that with as much resonance as possible. If I were to sit and do endless cable interviews -- all those things alienate me from what I need to stay connected to. It's not just a scoop. It's someone's life."
But the lecturer wasn't trying to advance an argument about what international law should be or should say; he was merely setting out principles of international human rights law as it already existed, including treaties ratified by the United States, that were generally recognised throughout the world. Even though Greenwald had great expertise in US constitutional and civil rights law, he seemed, at least back then, to be entirely unaware of international treaties and conventions on human rights.
This seems to be a rather extreme conclusion to me, unfortunately, without the link, one can't verify if it's at all a reasonable interpretation. It does seem unlikely that he was "entirely" unaware of such things, given his "great expertise in US constitutional and civil rights law", a not entirely unrelated area.
I'm not suggesting that Greenwald is beyond criticism (though I admire him and what I have read of his work), he's human. But I do think criticism ought to be a bit a better supported, Greenwald himself is usually pretty meticulous in providing quotations and links.
This is particularly true in the current context; Greenwald had already made powerful enemies through his criticisms of the Bush and Obama administrations and of mainstream media coverage of them. But attacks on him (and Snowden, Poitras has wisely kept a pretty low profile so far) have become more widespread and virulent after the NSA reporting, as he expected:
"When I made the choice to report aggressively on top-secret NSA programs, I knew that I would inevitably be the target of all sorts of personal attacks and smears. ... When I asked Ellsberg about that several years ago, he explained that the state uses those tactics against anyone who dissents from or challenges it simply to distract from the revelations and personally smear the person with whatever they can find to make people uncomfortable with the disclosures. So I've been fully expecting those kinds of attacks since I began my work on these NSA leaks. The recent journalist-led "debate" about whether I should be prosecuted for my reporting on these stories was precisely the sort of thing I knew was coming. ... I'm 46 years old and, like most people, have lived a complicated and varied adult life. I didn't manage my life from the age of 18 onward with the intention of being a Family Values US senator. My personal life, like pretty much everyone's, is complex and sometimes messy. If journalists really believe that, in response to the reporting I'm doing, these distractions about my past and personal life are a productive way to spend their time, then so be it." http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/26/nsa-revelations-response-to-smears
"When I made the choice to report aggressively on top-secret NSA programs, I knew that I would inevitably be the target of all sorts of personal attacks and smears. ... When I asked Ellsberg about that several years ago, he explained that the state uses those tactics against anyone who dissents from or challenges it simply to distract from the revelations and personally smear the person with whatever they can find to make people uncomfortable with the disclosures.
So I've been fully expecting those kinds of attacks since I began my work on these NSA leaks. The recent journalist-led "debate" about whether I should be prosecuted for my reporting on these stories was precisely the sort of thing I knew was coming. ...
I'm 46 years old and, like most people, have lived a complicated and varied adult life. I didn't manage my life from the age of 18 onward with the intention of being a Family Values US senator. My personal life, like pretty much everyone's, is complex and sometimes messy.
If journalists really believe that, in response to the reporting I'm doing, these distractions about my past and personal life are a productive way to spend their time, then so be it."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/26/nsa-revelations-response-to-smears
Maybe he should have known more about international laws and treaties, and about encryption and should have taken Snowden's approaches more seriously, more quickly. But at the moment I'd prefer to focus on the impressive work he's done, I'm impressed by the research in his articles which I've read, his debating skills in youtube videos I've seen and his courage in criticising powerful organisations - which hasn't made his life too easy;
Poitras and Greenwald are not facing any charges, at least not yet. They do not plan to stay away from America forever, but they have no immediate plans to return. One member of Congress has already likened what they've done to a form of treason, and they are well aware of the Obama administration's unprecedented pursuit of not just leakers but of journalists who receive the leaks. ... Greenwald asked Poitras, "Since it all began, have you had a non-N.S.A. day?" "What's that?" she replied. "I think we need one," Greenwald said. "Not that we're going to take one." Poitras talked about getting back to yoga again. Greenwald said he was going to resume playing tennis regularly. "I'm willing to get old for this thing," he said, "but I'm not willing to get fat." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-snowden.html
Poitras and Greenwald are not facing any charges, at least not yet. They do not plan to stay away from America forever, but they have no immediate plans to return. One member of Congress has already likened what they've done to a form of treason, and they are well aware of the Obama administration's unprecedented pursuit of not just leakers but of journalists who receive the leaks. ... Greenwald asked Poitras, "Since it all began, have you had a non-N.S.A. day?"
"What's that?" she replied.
"I think we need one," Greenwald said. "Not that we're going to take one."
Poitras talked about getting back to yoga again. Greenwald said he was going to resume playing tennis regularly. "I'm willing to get old for this thing," he said, "but I'm not willing to get fat."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-snowden.html
It could be you misread a discussion which at the time appeared Glenn Greenwald was on the losing side. Knowing what we understand today, improbability has turned out to be reality. Perhaps the New Zealand law lecturer was part of the establishment and had talking points of the "Five Eyes."
I was saddened by this fp story @BooMan - What a Dumb Argument. Taking Glenn Greenwald to task. It's not a conspiracy, it's what the Internet has become. Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.
So, unless there was another discussion here, Greenwald and the New Zealand law professor both argued on the basis of international law, Greenwald's ignorance was about a backdoor making the binding part less strong rathern than about something being binding, and the argument ended in agreement rather than accusations of speculation.
Either way, a reason I was uncritical about your recollection was that the NYT article contained two passages that bothered me for considering the rights violations of American citizens only [my emphasis]:
...The Snowden story, they both said, was a battle they were waging together, a fight against powers of surveillance that they both believe are a threat to fundamental American liberties. ...These lists have been criticized by civil rights groups for being too broad and arbitrary and for violating the rights of Americans who are on them...
...These lists have been criticized by civil rights groups for being too broad and arbitrary and for violating the rights of Americans who are on them...
As to your point about the American emphasis - well, it was in the NYT. However it does point out that he works for the Guardian and includes this:
I followed Poitras and Greenwald to the newsroom of O Globo, one of the largest newspapers in Brazil. Greenwald had just published an article there detailing how the N.S.A. was spying on Brazilian phone calls and e-mails. The article caused a huge scandal in Brazil, as similar articles have done in other countries around the world ... In the end, The Guardian moved ahead with their articles. But Poitras and Greenwald have created their own publishing network as well, placing articles with other outlets in Germany and Brazil and planning more for the future.
I followed Poitras and Greenwald to the newsroom of O Globo, one of the largest newspapers in Brazil. Greenwald had just published an article there detailing how the N.S.A. was spying on Brazilian phone calls and e-mails. The article caused a huge scandal in Brazil, as similar articles have done in other countries around the world ...
In the end, The Guardian moved ahead with their articles. But Poitras and Greenwald have created their own publishing network as well, placing articles with other outlets in Germany and Brazil and planning more for the future.
"It's really annoying and complicated, the encryption software," Greenwald said as we sat on his porch during a tropical drizzle. "He kept harassing me, but at some point he just got frustrated, so he went to Laura."While this reads fairly non-judgemental, and Greenwald was already working at breakneck speed, I find it stupendous to learn that he'd blown off a knowledgeable source like that - which hints at a painful oversight in his professionalism. Of course, to err is human.
"It's really annoying and complicated, the encryption software," Greenwald said as we sat on his porch during a tropical drizzle. "He kept harassing me, but at some point he just got frustrated, so he went to Laura."
Journalists and the Espionage Act: Prosecution risk is remote but real | Alison Frankel
Gregory's prosecutorial tone didn't go over well with journalists trained to believe that the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark 1971 ruling in The New York Times v. United States (better known as the Pentagon Papers case) gives them carte blanche to publish materials they've received lawfully from their sources, even if their sources broke the law to obtain the information. The court's subsequent 2001 ruling in Bartnicki v. Vopper confirmed that the media cannot be punished for publishing information that sources obtained illegally, so long as the information is of public importance. But there's actually a distinction in the law between the media's right to publish sensitive national security information and the government's right, at least in theory, to bring charges against reporters and publishers for possessing and disclosing classified information. Gregory's question, in other words, may have been inaptly posed but it addressed a legitimate, albeit remote, risk for reporters with hot national security stories. No journalist has so far been prosecuted under the Espionage Act for a story that reveals sensitive information (nor, for that matter, under other federal laws addressing classified information), and Attorney General Eric Holder has said publicly that he doesn't intend to start charging reporters for doing their job. Nevertheless, there's enough uncertainty about criminal liability that the government has used the threat of prosecution to try to squelch reporting, according to a fascinating 2008 paper, "National Security and the Press: The Government's Ability to Prosecute Journalists for the Possession or Publication of National Security Information," from the Communication Law & Policy journal.
Gregory's prosecutorial tone didn't go over well with journalists trained to believe that the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark 1971 ruling in The New York Times v. United States (better known as the Pentagon Papers case) gives them carte blanche to publish materials they've received lawfully from their sources, even if their sources broke the law to obtain the information. The court's subsequent 2001 ruling in Bartnicki v. Vopper confirmed that the media cannot be punished for publishing information that sources obtained illegally, so long as the information is of public importance. But there's actually a distinction in the law between the media's right to publish sensitive national security information and the government's right, at least in theory, to bring charges against reporters and publishers for possessing and disclosing classified information.
Gregory's question, in other words, may have been inaptly posed but it addressed a legitimate, albeit remote, risk for reporters with hot national security stories. No journalist has so far been prosecuted under the Espionage Act for a story that reveals sensitive information (nor, for that matter, under other federal laws addressing classified information), and Attorney General Eric Holder has said publicly that he doesn't intend to start charging reporters for doing their job. Nevertheless, there's enough uncertainty about criminal liability that the government has used the threat of prosecution to try to squelch reporting, according to a fascinating 2008 paper, "National Security and the Press: The Government's Ability to Prosecute Journalists for the Possession or Publication of National Security Information," from the Communication Law & Policy journal.
A Dutch example was the 2006 prosecution of two Dutch journalists, who were wiretapped and even got jailed, because they possessed a file from the Dutch secret service and they refused to reveal their source. They fought the tapping and jailing tooth and nail up to the European court in 2012 and every single time it was a crushing slapdown on the account of the Dutch state.
It should not come as a surprise, therefore, that the huntdown on whistleblowers has intensified instead.
Justice minstry Internet taps up five fold in one year (Dutch News) July 19, 2013 - The number of Internet taps carried out by Dutch police rose 500% to 16,600 last year, according to new justice ministry figures. By contrast, the number of phone taps rose just 3% to nearly 25,500 despite doubts about their usefulness. And the number of requests for information about phone calls - such as the location calls were made from - reached almost 57,000, up 10% on 2011. The Netherlands sanctions more phone taps than any other country in the world. The figures do not include taps by the security services.
(Dutch News) July 19, 2013 - The number of Internet taps carried out by Dutch police rose 500% to 16,600 last year, according to new justice ministry figures. By contrast, the number of phone taps rose just 3% to nearly 25,500 despite doubts about their usefulness. And the number of requests for information about phone calls - such as the location calls were made from - reached almost 57,000, up 10% on 2011. The Netherlands sanctions more phone taps than any other country in the world. The figures do not include taps by the security services.
My dairy @BooMan - Dutch Are Champions with 26,435 Phone Taps [January 10, 2010]
Dutch intercept recordings done by Israeli supplier Verint ...
Phone taps, Justice and intelligence services (BBC News) - The Dutch have been using telephone tap evidence since the 1970s - anyone who is suspected of having committed a crime punishable with four or more years in prison can be the subject of a telephone intercept. Once Dutch police officers have a warrant from a judge they tell the telephone service providers to divert all calls via a central intercept centre. The calls are recorded digitally and the police computer can store as many as 10 million calls. Safeguards Robert Van Bosbeek, the Dutch police commissioner in charge of this operation, stresses that ordinary police officers are not allowed access to the area where the recordings are made in order to preserve the integrity of the recordings. All calls are recorded so that they can also provide material for the defence. However, there are some concerns from the Dutch data protection authorities about the recording of calls between lawyers and their clients.
(BBC News) - The Dutch have been using telephone tap evidence since the 1970s - anyone who is suspected of having committed a crime punishable with four or more years in prison can be the subject of a telephone intercept.
Once Dutch police officers have a warrant from a judge they tell the telephone service providers to divert all calls via a central intercept centre. The calls are recorded digitally and the police computer can store as many as 10 million calls.
Safeguards
Robert Van Bosbeek, the Dutch police commissioner in charge of this operation, stresses that ordinary police officers are not allowed access to the area where the recordings are made in order to preserve the integrity of the recordings.
All calls are recorded so that they can also provide material for the defence. However, there are some concerns from the Dutch data protection authorities about the recording of calls between lawyers and their clients.
Dutch Police Don't Know How to Delete Intercepted Calls "The law in the Netherlands says that intercepted phone calls between attorneys and their clients must be destroyed. But the Dutch government has been keeping under wraps for years that no one has the foggiest clue how to delete them (Google translation). Now, an email (PDF) from the National Police Services Agency (KLPD) has surfaced, revealing that the working of the technology in question is a NetApp trade secret. The Dutch police are now trying to get their Israeli supplier Verint to tell them how to delete tapped calls and comply with the law. Meanwhile, attorneys in the Netherlands remain afraid to use their phones." Dutch article NRC newspaper: Ministry of Justice had no knowledge how to delete wiretaps See e-mail from an expert of the Korps Landelijke Politiediensten (KLPD) establishing the fact the technology is proprietary of the Israeli supplier of the computersystem for intercepts (Verint). "It is explained to me by representatives of the head company that information is deleted in one of the subsystems of the interceptsystem. This subsystem is named "Netapp" and is obtained by our supplier from their supplier of this subsystem."
"The law in the Netherlands says that intercepted phone calls between attorneys and their clients must be destroyed. But the Dutch government has been keeping under wraps for years that no one has the foggiest clue how to delete them (Google translation). Now, an email (PDF) from the National Police Services Agency (KLPD) has surfaced, revealing that the working of the technology in question is a NetApp trade secret. The Dutch police are now trying to get their Israeli supplier Verint to tell them how to delete tapped calls and comply with the law. Meanwhile, attorneys in the Netherlands remain afraid to use their phones."
Dutch article NRC newspaper: Ministry of Justice had no knowledge how to delete wiretaps
See e-mail from an expert of the Korps Landelijke Politiediensten (KLPD) establishing the fact the technology is proprietary of the Israeli supplier of the computersystem for intercepts (Verint).
"It is explained to me by representatives of the head company that information is deleted in one of the subsystems of the interceptsystem. This subsystem is named "Netapp" and is obtained by our supplier from their supplier of this subsystem."
Newest revelations of domestic spying by NSA stir up anger (AP) White House deputy press secretary Josh Earnest said that the NSA documents showed that NSA's Compliance Office established in 2009 "is monitoring, detecting, addressing and reporting compliance incidents," and that "the majority of the compliance incidents are unintentional." In a statement from the Massachusetts island of Martha's Vineyard, where the president is vacationing, he added that the administration is "keeping the Congress appropriately informed of compliance issues as they arise."
(AP) White House deputy press secretary Josh Earnest said that the NSA documents showed that NSA's Compliance Office established in 2009 "is monitoring, detecting, addressing and reporting compliance incidents," and that "the majority of the compliance incidents are unintentional." In a statement from the Massachusetts island of Martha's Vineyard, where the president is vacationing, he added that the administration is "keeping the Congress appropriately informed of compliance issues as they arise."
Detaining my partner: a failed attempt at intimidation I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
The Greenwald Drama Ramps Up Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.
David had spent the last week in Berlin, where he stayed with Laura Poitras, the US filmmaker who has worked with me extensively on the NSA stories. A Brazilian citizen, he was returning to our home in Rio de Janeiro this morning on British Airways, flying first to London and then on to Rio. When he arrived in London this morning, he was detained.
Next time, he'll fly Lufthansa.
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