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Yeah this is the illustration how a preferential voting system, which "on paper" looks awfully democratic, often is just ... awful.

Not that I actually searched much, but I never saw an explanation of what the Wikileaks people were thinking with their silly preferences -- unless it really was a mere clerical error (or several clerical errors). Net result of their participation : they seem to have contributed to depriving the Greens of a possible extra seat.

The flowering of "silly party" senators, off very low first-preference votes, is an illustration of the perversity of the system.

On balance, I think a straightforward proportional vote by state would give a more reasonable result, in terms of democracy.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 07:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
eurogreen:
Not that I actually searched much, but I never saw an explanation of what the Wikileaks people were thinking with their silly preferences -- unless it really was a mere clerical error (or several clerical errors). Net result of their participation : they seem to have contributed to depriving the Greens of a possible extra seat.

From the article I linked the image that emerges is that Assange's deal maximising faction on the board turned out to be a minority, moved to give Assange full freedom to deal, and when denied went ahead and couped the boards preferences by handing in something the board had not decided.

Why I resigned from the WikiLeaks party | Daniel Mathews | Comment is free | theguardian.com

At length, it was decided for NSW to put the Greens above the Shooters & Fishers and the Christian Right -- with whom deals had been considered and rejected.

WA was the easy case, because we had a pre-existing arrangement with the Greens senator, Scott Ludlam. They would clearly be ahead of the major parties, and Family First and the Christian Right. This was presented as uncontroversial and little argument was made.

Victoria was the most difficult. There was a vote on a resolution, which was complicated and contingent upon another deal, but roughly the question was whether or not to do a deal with Family First and put them in the top 10 preferenced parties, if we didn't get a better offer.

The vote went three yes, three abstain, five no. Shipton and Assange (via John as proxy) voted yes.

That the coup also contained clerical errors is not surprising, coups are often sloppy.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 02:32:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, its whether you are engaged in purely pragmatic deal making, treating the votes you might attract as bait to swap for the votes some other micro-party might attract, or distribute your preferences by political affinity.

It didn't matter in South Australia in the end, as the Green was the 5th Senator brought over the line on Labor preferences, but in a strong performance by labor in which Labor was the 5th Senator, it would have cost the Greens a seat.

The Greens in SA received preference flows from the Sex Party (Civil Libertarian) and the HEMP party, which makes sense on political affinity when the remaining parties are the ALP, Nick Xenophon's paternalistic wowsers, and the Coalition and Family First on the right. Preference flows by political affinity for Wikileaks would have seen similar preferencing, possibly with Nick Xenophon ahead of the ALP depending on which took a less bad position on internet neutrality.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 02:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Sex Party was founded by a recovering Haredi woman. In one interview she cited Yair Lapid as a model. Is this yet another neo-lib party in disguise?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 05:20:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Sex Party preferenced the Greens ahead of Labor and Labour ahead of Katter's Australia Party, Palmer United Party, the Coalition, Family First and Christian Democrats last, so on their major & 3rd party preferences, if they are neoliberal its no more than "common knowledge" neoliberal.

Under the 10% of a quota cut, they would have been relegated (0.0702), and of their five minor party and micro-party preference swaps, the Democrats (1), Wikileaks (3), One Nation (4), Shooters and Fishers (5) would have been eliminated, so their primary vote would have flowed to the Liberal Democrats.

So it comes down to whether they were a more progressive sounding stalking horse for the Liberal Democrats, or whether that was a preference deal reached without realizing the LDP would pull as a high fractional quota. You should only do a tactical high order preference deal with a substantially bigger party if they are big enough to possibly have a full quota and see their overflow coming your way.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 07:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should note that the "five" noted, this was the newspaper published preference lists, which omits a number of parties considered no-chancers.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 08:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bear in mind that this is a system that did indeed work as intended following the last reform, the expansion from five to six seats filled per state per election, until the micro-parties worked out how to game the system.

And there are more modest reforms that would restore the system to functioning as it did before the gaming began.

(1) Preferential voting above the line.

At present it is the complexity of individual preference voting that drive people to voting above the line, but if people could vote their preferences above the line, the party preference sheets would lose much of their clout.

(2) Put a primary vote threshold in place.

A primary vote threshold of one tenth of a quota would redistribute most micro-party votes to major and third parties in one round. It would eliminate the effect where one micro-party gets pushed up from a small fraction of a quota to a large fraction of a quota just by staying ahead of the cut and receiving the votes of eliminate parties it did preference deals with.

(3) Allow partial preferential voting

If a ballot with 18 votes below the line was accepted as a formal ballot, then people would be free to vote their own preferences without the chore of completing 90% or more of a table-cloth sized ballot with no more than two continuity errors.

The opening to abuse of the proportional preferential system could be closed. Indeed, now that the main losers to the system have been the Coalition and the ALP, it seems like it might be closable. But it will require a bit of a laughing stock campaign to get it fixed, because the minor parties hold the balance of power on issues where the Coalition and ALP is divided, and not fixing the system is one price they can demand for support on other votes.

It may come down to how the balance of power shakes out in practice. Both Senators of the new Palmer United Party had a primary vote over four tenths of a quota in both QLD and Tassie, Nick Xenophan and his independent group in South Australia got more than a full quota, and the Liberal Democrats got more than half a quota in NSW. So if that group ends up holding the balance of power, it could negotiate changes that are open to 3rd parties but reduce the opportunities for micro-parties to game the system.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 02:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I quite enjoy the chaos of minor party Senate preferencing, and I think it's an overall good for democracy.  Voters can check the party preference lists (which are submitted to the election commission), or vote below the line and avoid the lists entirely.  And as far as I can tell, many of the proposed improvements to Senate voting seem to me likely to further entrench the major  parties and decrease political diversity.  

As for the Wikileaks party, it seems to me that (a) Assange isn't really suited to lead a party with a democratic governing structure and (b) wikileaks was infected with the absolutely incendiary hatred some Australians have for the Greens.  (Greg Barns is no friend to the Greens.  Eg: "The court action by Gunns is not about silencing protesters, writes Greg Barns"  http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/12/20/1103391697956.html )  

The Pirate Party offered a really marked contrast of transparent and democratic political processes.   (See:  http://pirateparty.org.au/2013/08/18/preferencing-statement-for-federal-election-2013/ )
They've even got their pairwise comparison table up.  (And their window into the soap opera of the Australian Democrats)

(disclosure - I am a member of no political party)

by External Student on Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Among the reforms, the one that would least affect political diversity would be preferential voting above the line. Since people would be most inclined to engage in preferential voting above the line if they got wind of shonky preference deals by their first preference party, it would substantially reduce the appeal of preference deals across wide ideological gulfs.

As far as a 1/10th of a quota threshold, that is about 1.5% of the vote, which is a lower threshold than any proportional representation system I am aware of in Europe (though I am far from an expert on the subject) 4% and up seem to be more normal thresholds, and are compatible with quite diverse Parliamentary party coalitions.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 11:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Assange isn't really suited to lead a party with a democratic governing structure

Mild understatement... Assange is best suited to leading a sect.

My introduction to preferential voting was as a guest of NSW Young Labor in the early 1980s (at that time, I was president of NZ Labour Youth). Concerning elections within the ALP, it was not a pretty sight, and left me with a profound and lasting distaste for the system.

The people I hung out with were predominantly of Marxist-Leninist cast. One exception was Anthony Albanese, Rudd's ephemeral deputy prime minister. He had just been elected Immigration officer on the university executive, and was a target of ridicule in our ethnically-diverse group because he didn't even speak Italian. Within our circle he was known as "the bourgeois moralist".

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 05:54:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I imagine that exposure to NSW Labor's take on any system would sour you on that system. From my sometime observation of them over the ten years I was in NSW, they are a milk-curdling bunch.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 07:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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