Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Migeru:
the attempts to resurrect religious civil law "in order to accommodate immigrants"

What are these attempts?

by Katrin on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 04:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and where do they happen? I have no idea what you mean.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 01:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, in Britain for example. Archbishop backs sharia law for British Muslims (7 February 2008)

Also, the Netherlands reintroduced sex segregation in public schools in order to encourage schooling of muslim girls (Bjinse can correct me if I'm wrong).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 02:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, that. This is a less alarmist version of the story:
Rowan Williams and sharia law | openDemocracy
Nowhere in the lecture does Williams call for the implementation of sharia law - thoughthis has become the default assumption underlying the febrile controversy the talk and its accompanying media coverage almost instantly generated. Rather, heasks how it might be possible for the civil law to accommodate some of the legal procedures by which Muslim communities in Britain have traditionally regulatedtheir relationships and financial affairs, while safeguarding the equality and human rights afforded by modern law for vulnerable individuals (particularly women) within those communities. He reiterates several times that it would be important to ensure that "no `supplementary' jurisdiction could have the power to deny access to the rights granted to other citizens or to punish its members for claiming those rights." He also points out that there is already provision in English law for Jewish and Christian communities to have some autonomy over the governance of their religious affairs, without thereby putting themselves outside the law

Rowan Williams and sharia law | openDemocracy
the furious response to the archbishop's comments reveals a great deal about the hostility and ignorance with regard to Islam which forms a potent undercurrent in Britain's ostensibly multi-cultural society. It is also a reminder - if such reminders are needed - that this is a woefully anti-intellectual society, fed on a daily diet of the tabloid press and reality television, and apparently incapable of engaging in intelligent public debate about significant issues. Serious journalists who ought to know better have derided Williams for being too scholarly; the widespread belief seems to be that he has only himself to blame if people failed to grasp the subtleties of his argument. The logic of this message is that public figures must "dumbdown" or be damned.

What exactly are your objections to Williams' proposal?

by Katrin on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 02:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know what is gained by fragmenting personal status law and enabling community courts.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 02:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me neither, but it has already happened when they did the same for Christians and Jews. You said "in order to accommodate immigrants", and that sounded as if you mean something new had to be introduced. In reality the purpose seems to be to give Muslims rights Christians and Jews already enjoy. Sounds fair.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 02:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait, there are Christian and Jewish community courts with jurisdiction over civil disputes in Britain?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 02:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But only Muslims are dangerous. And immigrants whose needs must not be accomodated.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 02:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have a source for that? Do Christian community churches get to decide on matters of personal status law such as divorce or paternity?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 02:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a few years since I read on that, so I have no sources ready. As far as I remember the courts decide on cases that are uninteresting outside their respective communities: religious divorce and so for people who are already legally divorced and want to religiously marry again. The courts cannot (bindingly) decide on custody for children. There is not much potential for controversy, which is probably why the courts are so little known. The sharia courts which exist in Britain (oh yes!) have become attractive for non-Muslims too: they work quickly. Under the arbitration act you can take your differences about the plumber's invoice there if the other party agrees to that too. And sharia, developed in a society of merchants, is well able to settle such controversies satisfactorily. (The Guardian had an article ages ago)

I am still of the opinion ALL these religious courts should be abolished.

by Katrin on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 06:33:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding sources, I note that it was in Katrin's quote:

Rowan Williams and sharia law | openDemocracy

He also points out that there is already provision in English law for Jewish and Christian communities to have some autonomy over the governance of their religious affairs, without thereby putting themselves outside the law.

From what I can see, Williams only referred to Orthodox Jewish practice, though. On that, here is a source from the time of the controversy:

BBC NEWS | UK | Religious courts already in use

...Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries.>

British Jews, particularly the orthodox, will frequently turn to their own religious courts, the Beth Din, to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce.

...Both sides in a dispute must be Jewish, obviously, and must have agreed to have their case heard by the Beth Din. Once that has happened, its eventual decision is binding. English law states that any third party can be agreed by two sides to arbitrate in a dispute, and in this case the institutional third party is the Beth Din.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 08:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, the Netherlands reintroduced sex segregation in public schools in order to encourage schooling of muslim girls (Bjinse can correct me if I'm wrong).

As far as I know, this hasn't happened. I've never heard about this, although that doesn't mean much. Google and a search through the Dutch newspaper database don't render any hits either. There is always the off-chance it hasn't been big in the news and politicians haven't heard about it, although that'd be doubtful, considering the topic.

Secondly, such policy doesn't make immediate sense to me but when dealing with politicians, that doesn't mean much either. But if I recall the statistics correctly, Muslim girls are doing much better in the Dutch education system than Muslim boys, plus the past years have seen an overall improvement for both sexes - although it's still far from optimal.

by Bjinse on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 03:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I only found this: Battle brewing over single-sex classes for Muslim women which is not about schools but about "integration classes" for immigrants.

The co-ed schools story may have been distorted in the foreign press.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 03:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd suspect so, there's a big difference between integration classes and public schools. Integration classes are the domain of the municipalities, and each can shape these courses at their own behest. The kerfuffle the linked article references is about a minister's chagrin that some municipalities did organise segregated classes, and some others appeared to be - but it turned out only women signed up for these classes. In total there were 27 Dutch counties (out of 400) that had specifically sex segregated courses, but all of these were only part of a longer programme. All municipalities defended their choice on practical grounds.

Hardly worth a sizzle.

by Bjinse on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 05:04:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most jurisdictions have provisions for legal recognition of informal arbitration, within certain limits.

Provided proper measures are taken to prevent such informal arbitration from evolving into a full-blown parallel judicial system, there is nothing inherently wrong with this.

In other words, I'm perfectly fine with consenting adults deciding to use Sharia law in informal arbitration, and have it legally recognized to the same extent that such arbitration would be legally recognized if it were based on Klingon law, Bob the Bartender's say-so, or indeed any other mutually agreed standard.

Crucially, however, this should include the right to reject that standard at any time and for any reason, and appeal any disputes outstanding after such a rejection to a court of law.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 04:25:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series