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Yes, go and dig. You won't find any quotes where I said what you put into my mouth. As I said: I would remember. The whole thing that you put into my mouth there is so alien to anything I said (and completely unrelated to any of the fields where people are not permitted to do what their religion requires).

JakeS:

When you segue seamlessly from arguing that veil-bans are oppressive and racist (which they are) into special pleading for religious idiosyncrasies to have a higher status than secular hobbies (which they shouldn't), what else are we supposed to conclude?

Your creativity in finding derogatory terms when talking about religion gets into the way of transporting meaning. I understand you have to set your priorities. What is "religious idiosyncrasies" meant to be?

Here is from my diary: I firmly believe in justice and equal rights of all humans. I am using "believe" with a reason: there is core belief underlying all political convictions. Our (rational) political choices have a foundation in such sets of beliefs. Making it a matter of principle to stand with the vulnerable, to defend human rights, to fight for justice is NOT equal to playing games in the woodlands.

Are you talking about the ethics that underlie a persons decisions, or the ways to arrive at these ethics? They are really the same for you as the rules of a fucking game? Well, not for me.

JakeS:

Actually, we had a BBC clip with a deranged fundie fruitcake saying precisely that not so very long ago. You objected quite strenuously to people who pointed out that she was insane, and never took issue with the fact that she was saying precisely what you now claim to not support

Nope. I said that the insinuation that the guy's right to wear clothes of his choice was in any danger was idiotic, and that it was irrelevant if the woman was defending her freedom or her religion or whatever: what is in danger is the rights of her minority, especially of women. It doesn't matter if she is insane (but the BBC wouldn't have invited her if she had been likely to raise only reasonable stuff): the question if she would grant the guy freedom if she had to decide on it in exchange for the freedom to wear a veil is outrageous.  

It's the first time that I hear of the existence of "religious exemptions from vaccination programs". I have never expressed any sympathy for religious or other exemptions from general education, in the contrary. What are you talking about then? Vaccinations are voluntary, only smallpox used to be compulsory. There are some parents who don't want their children to be vaccinated. I find that stupid of them, even dangerous, but they are free to do so. It's the law. Do you want the law altered? It might be a good idea. What has that to do with religion?

JakeS:

will you also grant me that opposition to denying religious people the right to something solely because it is a religious symbol or ritual is implicit in every post I make?

I lost track of the negations in that question. Try again.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 2nd, 2014 at 06:35:19 PM EST
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On second thoughts: stop that digging and looking backwards. You apparently misunderstood me, and that's why you misrepresent my posts. I have no intention to attack you, what I want is that you stop your attacks on me. It is false and very off-putting to be told that everyone with a religious belief belongs in the same corner as reactionary fundies with an illiberal political agenda. It has often made me think of quitting here.
by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 02:31:37 AM EST
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I think you both missed what question the women on BBC was responding to. So did I, until someone posted a link here to a text written by the guy posing the question. (If anyone finds link, please post.)

His question refered to the specific t-shirt he was wearing, that was apparently part of a Jesus and Mo controversy. This makes the womans reply intelligable. And it also brings print into the question. Because clothes being opposed as clothes is imho a bit (but not completly) differrent from clothes as speach. For example, a t-shirt with text that is libel (or is it slander when it is not printed on paper?) can be de-facto banned without this being perceived as a ban on t-shirts as clothes.

Other cases are less clear. If I remember 90ies court cases correctly nazi uniforms are de facto banned from at least schools, if they are perceived as serious. That is if they are perceived as hate speach. They are not banned if they are for the school play, or a costume party. So they are not banned as clothes, but as speach.

I am not sure where this leaves the burka debate, guess both cases can be argued, but I think it is a distinction that should be made. And at least it makes the BBC debate a bit less weird.

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by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 08:59:48 AM EST
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