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This extraordinary claim CLEARLY needs to be backed up by evidence. Your solution, the ban on headscarves, solves a problem that exists in your fantasy.

Too bad. This is no fantasy, nor is evidence needed when discussing this in relation to French state schools. The headscarf is more than a debate about a piece of cloth, but a symbolic pebble in the ideological pond of the French secular state. As Jerome was (is?) wont to say: there are no Muslims in France.

As someone outside of France, it took me a number of years to grasp that point.

by Bjinse on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:00:34 AM EST
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Bjinse:
As Jerome was (is?) wont to say: there are no Muslims in France.

Really? Citation?

(No, I really don't want to get into this "debate", but that takes the cake. Or maybe it's snark?)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:24:14 AM EST
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There are no Muslims in France.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:38:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, I forgot that one. But here are two quotes from Jerome in that thread that explain his meaning:

Jerome a Paris:

The fact is that more Americans (as a percentage of the relevant population) say they are Christians first and Americans second than French people say they are Muslim first, and French second.

So when "Christians" is the widely accepted word to describe white Americans, I'll stop complaining about the word "Muslim" being used to describe France's Arab and African communities.

Jerome a Paris:

the relevant question is "are Arabs integrating in France," not "are Muslims integrating in France.

Racism and other integration obstacles are linked to their being Arab, not to their being Muslim. The label "Muslim" is one that's only been used since 9/11 and is part of the vocabulary of the War on Terra.

Thus, we should not help promote that narrative.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 12:39:10 PM EST
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Jerome a Paris:
the relevant question is "are Arabs integrating in France," not "are Muslims integrating in France.
That sounds dangerously close to denying the Arabs/Muslims the right to self-identify. Which is par for the course since French Jacobinism as a matter of state policy denies the existence of French "identities" below the Nation.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 12:42:18 PM EST
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Jerome a Paris:
Of course there are Muslims in France

it's just not their predominant characteristic, not their defining one, and it is incorrect to label them as such.

There are tennis players in France, but it's not a label that's often used to define groups and assign violent political meaning to.

I've always seen this as the key quote of Jerome where things began to click together (for me, anyway) how France 'works'. Provocative as it was (is!), I found it a rather effective meme, it sure sticks to the mind. BTW, Jerome and I have discussed amiably over this phrase during one of the ET-meetups.

by Bjinse on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 01:15:17 PM EST
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As someone outside of France, it took me a number of years to grasp that point.

As an immigrant, I probably embraced the French secular notion rather too zealously. I have largely got over that excess. Meanwhile I have advanced my understanding of Moslem culture and mindset (through personal contact, and also reading Moslem authors, watching TV, listening to music, learning Arabic...)

It gives me better insight about why the French system fails Moslems so miserably. But few clues as to how the situation can be improved. The litany about how colonialist, racist, islamophobic etc attitudes keeps them down is true, but it is not the whole story.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:29:09 AM EST
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