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A ban of headscarves does not change that. It humiliates and alienates. That's no way to change attitudes in anyone.
Introduce your daughters to wearing hijab as soon as possible, for instance, as soon as they can walk. Prepare them for when hijab and niqab will be worn regularly at puberty; do not dress them in kaffir clothes, and then one day they hit puberty and must totally adapt to the modesty clothing of a muslimah. Remember that daughters like to dress like their mother. You may use positive reinforcement to emphasize the blessings of wearing hijab, expressing simple emotions that a child can understand, such as feeling sorry for other girls (the children of disbelieving parents) that don't get their own hijab to wear.
Remember that daughters like to dress like their mother.
You may use positive reinforcement to emphasize the blessings of wearing hijab, expressing simple emotions that a child can understand, such as feeling sorry for other girls (the children of disbelieving parents) that don't get their own hijab to wear.
By puberty, girls should be wearing complete hijab, i.e. niqab, loose-fitting covering clothes at all times when going out of the house. Muslimahs should wear hijab at age 7 to fulfill their obligation to salah. Avoid dressing boys in clothes that resemble the kaffir. Kufi, thobes and other clothes that reflect his muslim identity, are recommended.
Muslimahs should wear hijab at age 7 to fulfill their obligation to salah.
Avoid dressing boys in clothes that resemble the kaffir. Kufi, thobes and other clothes that reflect his muslim identity, are recommended.
I don't know about you, but if I have to escape this downwards spiral that is present Europe and end up in a tropical paradise where there is no need for clothes at all, I would still like to keep at least some underwear on. Call me prude, but adjusting to total nuditiy would not be an easy journey. Issuing a formal ban on all clothes would not liberate me from the values of the society where I grew up. Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
Don't you remember? :)
If parents want to keep things from their children--for religious or whatever reasons--the children lack independence when they grow up. I find the principle right to limit the rights of parents
Why is this such a problem for you?
"they can do what they like at home, but not in public." Indeed. And authoritarian parents will take care that their daughters stay at home as much as they can enforce. It is a problem for me because it is a problem for vulnerable girls.
What?
If (as it happened in France) the girl insisting on wearing a veil is fired, then the state most definitely didn't achieve conformity and didn't save the girl from her community's male-chauvinist authoritarianism. What's more, I think the message sent by those implementing such a ban has nothing to do with women's freedom, instead, the real intention is to send a message to Arab (men) that they should "go back home" where they are free to continue their alien cultural practices (including oppressing women). *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Those who consistently fail to conform to a school's rules end up getting expelled. This is universal (except in jurisdictions who go for physical coercion instead).
Sure, a little bit of negotiation, of give-and-take is advisable, but that requires a degree of leeway and flexibility on both sides (not an outstanding characteristic of either Islamic fundamentalists or of the Education Nationale... nevertheless, solutions have sometimes been found on a local basis)
Then, you get the problem of de-schooled children. Often contradictory with the obligation of education below a certain age. In the general case, this is fudged by an expelled student enrolling in another school, and hopefully changing their ways. In the case of headscarves, being a simple yes-or-no option, that isn't helpful (except as a way of getting around individual antagonisms or pride). It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
Ah come on. First, schools have a long list of possible measures, including calling on the parents. Second, how far you go should depend on the type of offense. The way I see it, wearing a veil is no worse than wearing long hairs in the sixties. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
But it's a binary decision at the end : either covered hair is allowed, or it isn't; either the parents are prepared to countenance uncovering, or they aren't. There is no "he promises to be good from now on" type leeway.
What's more, organisationally, schools don't have autonomy to fix local rules. Certainly, short-term permissive fixes have been tried, in some cases; but if anybody (teachers, parents) object, the hierarchy will intervene to enforce strict application. It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
Really?
France and the veil - the dark side of the law
"When the headmistress saw that I was wearing a veil outside school she told me that I couldn't wear my long skirt. She said I was to dress properly, with jeans and a top, or to leave school. So I left." Nineteen-year-old Aurélie, from Paris, knew that there were no grounds to expel her from school - the 2004 law that bans wearing "conspicuous religious symbols" in French schools only applies to headscarves, it doesn't extend to long skirts - but she couldn't face the confrontation. "She [the headmistress] was telling me all sort of things, that I wouldn't find work, that God wouldn't feed me. A counsellor told me she was saying nasty things about Muslims in the staff room. I thought it was unfair", she says, "Why could I not be free to practise my religion and go to school?" ... Following the 2004 law forbidding religious "conspicuous religious signs at school" (of which 3 Sikh boys were the collateral victims during the first year of application), Tevanian and others decided to make their own assessment of the law. They counted the girls who had been expelled for wearing the veil but also those who had resigned or failed to show up at the start of the school year and interviewed those who had agreed to take their veil off. Very quickly, they found numerous abuses of the law: cases where veiled girls had been denied the right to sit at an exam or to enrol at university, cases where veiled mothers had been barred access to a school when they had come to pick up their child's end of term report - or barred from accompanying a school outing. And also cases where banks and gyms had refused access to veiled women. Actions against the veil had multiplied in higher education, in the workplace and in in public spaces
"When the headmistress saw that I was wearing a veil outside school she told me that I couldn't wear my long skirt. She said I was to dress properly, with jeans and a top, or to leave school. So I left." Nineteen-year-old Aurélie, from Paris, knew that there were no grounds to expel her from school - the 2004 law that bans wearing "conspicuous religious symbols" in French schools only applies to headscarves, it doesn't extend to long skirts - but she couldn't face the confrontation. "She [the headmistress] was telling me all sort of things, that I wouldn't find work, that God wouldn't feed me. A counsellor told me she was saying nasty things about Muslims in the staff room. I thought it was unfair", she says, "Why could I not be free to practise my religion and go to school?"
...
Following the 2004 law forbidding religious "conspicuous religious signs at school" (of which 3 Sikh boys were the collateral victims during the first year of application), Tevanian and others decided to make their own assessment of the law. They counted the girls who had been expelled for wearing the veil but also those who had resigned or failed to show up at the start of the school year and interviewed those who had agreed to take their veil off. Very quickly, they found numerous abuses of the law: cases where veiled girls had been denied the right to sit at an exam or to enrol at university, cases where veiled mothers had been barred access to a school when they had come to pick up their child's end of term report - or barred from accompanying a school outing. And also cases where banks and gyms had refused access to veiled women. Actions against the veil had multiplied in higher education, in the workplace and in in public spaces
But it's a binary decision at the end : either covered hair is allowed, or it isn't
I would dispute even that. The same way you can hide your cross in your shirt you can also wear a bandanna other girls wear as purely a fashion item, but even this wasn't acceptable in the Islamophobic craze.
What's more, organisationally, schools don't have autonomy to fix local rules
What local rules do you mean? Are you speaking about the pre-2004 situation, or some rules above the ban pushed for and enacted by the conservative national government (with Socialist support) in 2004? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
With respect to the 2004 law, at the beginning of the 2005 school year Tevanian enumerates 45 girls expelled (plus three Sikh boys), and around 60 who dropped out of the public system to either go to private schools or follow correspondance courses. And an uncounted number of girls who took off their hair coverings and went back to school. It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
Your claim was about the process, not the end result. And the headmaster didn't "run through the long list of measures" but crossed several lines: attacking on the basis of head-scarves worn outside school and long skirts. You didn't react to the bandanna point, but it's the same with long skirts.
Tevanian enumerates
And what do these numbers mean to you? The point is "numerous abuses of the law", as a counter to your claim of due course. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
eurogreen:
Well, you can guarantee that in every case of expulsion, they ran through the long list of measures, including discussion with the parents.
Not an expulsion. The reported attitude of the principal is, of course, deplorable.
"numerous abuses of the law"
I sort of feel I've covered this territory in this post. I have sort of implicitly apologised on behalf of the Education Nationale, but I don't feel I can assume personal responsibility for its deeply dysfunctional nature (in general, you should avoid asking the EN to implement any policy, because they will fuck it up).
I wish it would be possible to evaluate the result, ten years after, of the law banning religious dress in schools. Perhaps the effects were negative overall; perhaps a permissive attitude would have brought better outcomes (but who defines what are desirable outcomes?) It would be hard to find objective investigators; everyone has strong opinions on the subject. But I wish it were possible to measure, qualitatively and/or quantitatively, changes in attitudes towards Moslems, or changes in behaviours among Moslems (particularly between boys and girls). Because this is the big unspoken, unmentionable corollary to the debate about Moslem girls and why they must remain modestly dressed : the extreme assymetry in rights and expectations between the sexes.
It is no accident that the recent scare campaign against the proposal to introduce "gender studies" in primary schools provoked such a strong reaction from Moslem parents in particular. Questioning gender identity and the associated rights and duties of the sexes does not go down well among working-class Moslems. In the whole question of the integration/insertion of Moslems in French society, in my opinion this is probably the toughest nut to crack. It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
I don't buy that it is that much of a shock for girls to remain unveiled in front of classmates they grew up with at school,
No? How would you feel if your clothes became banned, and after the ban comes into force you had to face the people who know how you dressed while you were free? Not humiliated?
- That they can do what their parents like when under the authority of their parents, and do what the school requires when they are at school. It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
For example : bilingual children (including those whose parents don't speak the local language but learn it at school); those whose home environments put no value on learning or reading, but acquire these habits at school; battered children who learn to feel safe and empowered at school; children of divorced parents who have very different lifestyles; and so on.
Some people imagine that children will be confused by such differences. With respect to bilingualism, for example, people with no experience of the question are often convinced that it must slow children's development. In fact, it helps if one is consistent, using one language or the other with certain people or in certain situations, rather than mixing arbitrarily. But "religious" with the family, "secular" in school is exceedingly clear, and not a source of confusion for the child.
I have always considered this capacity to manage differences a very positive thing : enriching for the child when the different environments carry positive things; and giving the child an alternative when one of the environments carries bad stuff. It empowers the child to recognise that there are alternatives in life, and helps them choose between them when the time is right, or to determine their own path.
If, on the other hand, you find it important that your children should understand that there is only one valid value system or path in life, then it is important to limit exposure to the alternatives, and/or to forbid the child from experiencing them.
So, yeah, for my part, I propose to propose an alternative, in the school environment, to a consistent and complex style of raising children with a ban on headscarves in schools. It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
So, yeah, for my part, I propose to propose an alternative, in the school environment, to a consistent and complex style of raising children with a ban on headscarves in schools.
If that, A BAN, is a proposal for you, I shudder to think what you might mean when you consider force.
I remember how hard that was to learn for my daughter and her (Muslim) friend when they were about 4 years old. The friend's brother expected a friend who would stay overnight, and the girls naturally got the idea to copy that. And the parents of the 4 year old friend of my daughter didn't allow that. They would let the girl stay her for the night or let my daughter stay there. "We don't believe in girls staying outside their families." Period.
Have you any proposals for a new ban to change that?
But she will have to fight if she wants to go dancing or so. Or else wait till she is 18. Or else, accept the norms her parents live by. By the way, neither the mother nor the girl wear headscarves.
In Germany you do have banned ideologies. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
Mere ideology is not enough reason to remove a child.
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