Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Well, you can guarantee that in every case of expulsion, they ran through the long list of measures, including discussion with the parents.

But it's a binary decision at the end : either covered hair is allowed, or it isn't; either the parents are prepared to countenance uncovering, or they aren't. There is no "he promises to be good from now on" type leeway.

What's more, organisationally, schools don't have autonomy to fix local rules. Certainly, short-term permissive fixes have been tried, in some cases; but if anybody (teachers, parents) object, the hierarchy will intervene to enforce strict application.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 05:33:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you can guarantee that in every case of expulsion, they ran through the long list of measures

Really?

France and the veil - the dark side of the law

"When the headmistress saw that I was wearing a veil outside school she told me that I couldn't wear my long skirt. She said I was to dress properly, with jeans and a top, or to leave school. So I left." Nineteen-year-old Aurélie, from Paris, knew that there were no grounds to expel her from school - the 2004 law that bans wearing "conspicuous religious symbols" in French schools only applies to headscarves, it doesn't extend to long skirts - but she couldn't face the confrontation. "She [the headmistress] was telling me all sort of things, that I wouldn't find work, that God wouldn't feed me. A counsellor told me she was saying nasty things about Muslims in the staff room. I thought it was unfair", she says, "Why could I not be free to practise my religion and go to school?"

...

Following the 2004 law forbidding religious "conspicuous religious signs at school" (of which 3 Sikh boys were the collateral victims during the first year of application), Tevanian and others decided to make their own assessment of the law. They counted the girls who had been expelled for wearing the veil but also those who had resigned or failed to show up at the start of the school year and interviewed those who had agreed to take their veil off. Very quickly, they found numerous abuses of the law: cases where veiled girls had been denied the right to sit at an exam or to enrol at university, cases where veiled mothers had been barred access to a school when they had come  to pick up their child's end of term report - or barred from accompanying a school outing. And also cases where banks and gyms had refused access to veiled women. Actions against the veil had multiplied in higher education, in the workplace and in in public spaces

But it's a binary decision at the end : either covered hair is allowed, or it isn't

I would dispute even that. The same way you can hide your cross in your shirt you can also wear a bandanna other girls wear as purely a fashion item, but even this wasn't acceptable in the Islamophobic craze.

What's more, organisationally, schools don't have autonomy to fix local rules

What local rules do you mean? Are you speaking about the pre-2004 situation, or some rules above the ban pushed for and enacted by the conservative national government (with Socialist support) in 2004?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 06:13:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well. In the case you cite, the girl was not expelled -- she left school because she couldn't face the confrontation. Not a good outcome, but not a counter-example to what I said.

With respect to the 2004 law, at the beginning of the 2005 school year Tevanian enumerates 45 girls expelled  (plus three Sikh boys), and around 60 who dropped out of the public system to either go to private schools or follow correspondance courses. And an uncounted number of girls who took off their hair coverings and went back to school.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 07:13:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the girl was not expelled

Your claim was about the process, not the end result. And the headmaster didn't "run through the long list of measures" but crossed several lines: attacking on the basis of head-scarves worn outside school and long skirts. You didn't react to the bandanna point, but it's the same with long skirts.

Tevanian enumerates

And what do these numbers mean to you? The point is "numerous abuses of the law", as a counter to your claim of due course.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 07:54:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm... what was my claim again?

eurogreen:

Well, you can guarantee that in every case of expulsion, they ran through the long list of measures, including discussion with the parents.

Not an expulsion. The reported attitude of the principal is, of course, deplorable.

"numerous abuses of the law"

I sort of feel I've covered this territory in this post. I have sort of implicitly apologised on behalf of the Education Nationale, but I don't feel I can assume personal responsibility for its deeply dysfunctional nature (in general, you should avoid asking the EN to implement any policy, because they will fuck it up).

I wish it would be possible to evaluate the result, ten years after, of the law banning religious dress in schools. Perhaps the effects were negative overall; perhaps a permissive attitude would have brought better outcomes (but who defines what are desirable outcomes?) It would be hard to find objective investigators; everyone has strong opinions on the subject. But I wish it were possible to measure, qualitatively and/or quantitatively, changes in attitudes towards Moslems, or changes in behaviours among Moslems (particularly between boys and girls). Because this is the big unspoken, unmentionable corollary to the debate about Moslem girls and why they must remain modestly dressed : the extreme assymetry in rights and expectations between the sexes.

It is no accident that the recent scare campaign against the proposal to introduce "gender studies" in primary schools provoked such a strong reaction from Moslem parents in particular. Questioning gender identity and the associated rights and duties of the sexes does not go down well among working-class Moslems. In the whole question of the integration/insertion of Moslems in French society, in my opinion this is probably the toughest nut to crack.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 09:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series