Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
DoDo:
I think with regards to your argument that the bans on the veil are in truth attacks against minority rights, it doesn't matter that the minority is a religious one.
 

There are not enough plain racists arguing against scarves and for the downright exclusion of minorities to be successful. You can only get a limited support for demands to kick all foreigners out because they take away our jobs and our housing and our benefits or to strip them of their humanity. There are some nasty organisations and demands, but they are not for polite company. Making it a defence of secularism against the foreigners who bring their foreign religion brings support from people who would be embarassed otherwise.

DoDo:

I think in context, the discussion is about the weight of those principles when invoked to justify an act in conflict with some basic rights and laws. Then, the question is: is there a potentially law-breaking act which should be defensible on the basis of one's beliefs and ethical norms but indefensible only on the basis of the rules of a game?

Agree. Think of conscientous objection, for instance. It took a lot of effort to make that a right, and millions had to break the law before conscientous objection became a right. There are different ways to arrive at the underlying ethics when refusing military service, religious and non-religious ones, but they can't be equalled with playing games.

By the way, if atheist privilege to eliminate religiously informed ethics from the public sphere had prevailed, the movement for conscientous objection would probably have been too weak to be successful.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 08:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are not enough plain racists arguing against scarves and for the downright exclusion of minorities to be successful...

Discriminators always look to expand their following by corrupting respectable views. Middle Age anti-Semites invented the blood libel. The slave-holders in the US South incorporated the traces of ancient Middle East slavery in the Bible into their ideology, making modern slavery divinely ordained. 19th century anti-Semites adapted religiously rooted anti-Semitism by adding Enlightement-era ethnic nationalism. Throughout the ages, the enslavement of other people for the enrichment of the few in the form of colonialism was justified to the home population with lofty goals (Roman Empire: bring civilisation and peace, Spain: bring Christianity to the pagans, British Empire: bring civilisation, US empire: bring freedom & democracy). The fact that Islamophobes used secularism to mainstream their racism/xenophobia is specific to the case, and what really matters is that people's secularism was subverted, rather than that secularism was subverted.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 11:13:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Think of conscientous objection

Good point, I haven't thought of that kind of law-breaking.

atheist privilege to eliminate religiously informed ethics from the public sphere

Hm, now I also arrived at the point where I don't understand your use of "privilege".

privilege - definition of privilege by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

a. A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste.

I don't see how any of that fits your usage above. Perhaps you meant another word? I would guess you meant "policy".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 11:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I mean privilege as in exercising rights without conceding the same rights to others. We are reaching a stage where religious right-wingers and atheist left-wingers agree that religious is the same as right-wing. People like me are thrown under the bus from both sides, and suddenly there is a gap unbridgeable by arguments.

What sort of law-breaking have you been thinking of?

by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean privilege as in exercising rights without conceding the same rights to others

Hm.

  1. You could say that once religiously informed ethics are eliminated from the public sphere, that gives a privilege to arguments not based in religion. But arguments not based in religion aren't "atheist": for example, both theists and atheists can argue on the basis of existing laws, democratic majorities, common interests or the Public Good, etc. I suggest that rather than atheists having a privilege, what you think of is a restriction on religionists (which is not a mirror image).

  2. Your original sentence, however, doesn't appear to make sense with privilege as right: the only thing I can consider as a right "to eliminate religiously informed ethics from the public sphere" is our right to vote in a referendum, and that right is not exclusive to atheists, nor technically denied to theists. Nor has it been exercised this way anywhere so far, to my knowledge. (This may come down to semantics, but then it is the semantics that made me fail to understand what you meant first.)


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, if atheist privilege to eliminate religiously informed ethics from the public sphere had prevailed, the movement for conscientous objection would probably have been too weak to be successful.
That's turning social reality on its head. It's evidence of religious privilege that conscientious objectors who claimed to be based on secular humanist principles would have been treated more harshly than those claiming religious principles. Possibly because the authoritarians administering military service were inclined to accord religious objections greater respect. That is religious privilege. Not a "failure of atheist privilege to prevail".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 10:00:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes; from the history given in the Wikipedia article, it started at a time atheism was practically illegal. What happened was that the religious privilege (granted to Mennonites and Quakers) was expanded to non-religious causes.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The position of supporting conscientous objection crept into the mainstream churches too, at the same time. Mainstream churches havemilitary chaplains and so, and  at the same time they give support to conscientous objectors.

When my husband reached military age in the early Seventies he had to appear before a commission which decided if he had really a conscience and would be allowed to object, and he had to bring two testimonies from persons describing his pacifist conscience. Long hair was an argument against the existence of a conscience. The testimonies were by his local parson, where my husband was active in the community, and by his mother, a refugee who described that war was how as a child she had to walk from Pomerania to Schleswig-Holstein in the first months of 45, and that she had taught her children accordingly. My husband's conscience was immediately recognised after they had read these two documents.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 04:28:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series