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for France this ultimately entails a rejection of the French Jacobin groundwork and the secular state.

Of course. Ultimately Katrin wants a rejection of the secular state. Hence the exotic hair-on-fire insinuations about 'atheist privilege', and the framing of any disagreement as a personal attack.

This is what theists do. They don't want any higher authority than the one they claim for themselves. Secular authority is 'totalitarian' and 'oppressive' by definition.

This is SOP, and shouldn't surprise anyone with experience of theocratic politics.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 09:50:07 AM EST
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In a thread already close to providing more heat than light, I find it unhelpful to speculate on the motives of other participants.

What we can say for certain is that Katrin argues a position which is inconsistent with the maintenance of the secular state. Whether this is due to accident, sinister designs on the secular state and rule of law (yes, the two go inextricably together), or merely irrelevant collateral damage in pursuit of a different objective considered more important is neither something which can be divined from the position argued nor particularly pertinent to the discussion.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 02:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What we can say for certain is that Katrin argues a position which is inconsistent with the maintenance of the secular state.

And that's why I said 'theocracy.' Because for all practical purposes, that's what theocracy is - a move to dismantle the secular state and its aspirations[1] to a level ground for all participants, and replace it with ethical and judicial systems that privilege religious traditions over secular ones.

Let's have the Wikipedia definition:

Theocracy is a form of government in which a deity is officially recognized as the civil Ruler and official policy is governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group.

Arguing that policy should allow a religious group to have privileges which aren't available to other participants meets that definition, don't you think?

And considering we've been insulted as 'atheist fundamentalist sectarians' and 'Stalinists', and it's been insinuated that no one in this discussion has any real interest in progress or basic human rights - purely because we don't immediately accept an argument that pretends to be about human rights, but is clearly really just an argument for theological privilege based on a very selective view of what human rights actually mean in practical politics - I think the comments have been more restrained than they might have been.

Which definition of theocracy did you think I was using?

[1] Well - former aspirations, anyway.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 05:46:41 PM EST
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Arguing that policy should allow a religious group to have privileges which aren't available to other participants meets that definition, don't you think?

No, it doesn't. There is a difference between arguing that religious groups should be accorded some undeserved prerogatives and privileges, and arguing that religious doctrine should be the deciding factor in all, or even most, lawmaking and jurisprudence. In the same way that there is a difference wage labor and chattel slavery.

There are many perfectly habitable half-way houses between "not secular" and "theocratic." The US is not secular. Saudi Arabia is a theocracy.

I think the comments have been more restrained than they might have been.

Tu quoque was a weak argument in third grade, and it's not gotten better since.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 07:25:32 PM EST
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I must also most strenuously object to the insinuation that Katrin is a theocrat.

Words have meanings, and turning words like "theocrat" or "fascist" into common terms of abuse is Unhelpful.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 03:14:53 PM EST
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Oh, but Katrin allies herself with theocrats <ducks>

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 7th, 2014 at 10:23:24 AM EST
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