Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
You perhaps didn't realise that I was talking about (and linking, and quoting) the original article (the article linked by Das Monde was a commentary on that article).

Did you read it? I found it more interesting than the meta-commentary. Here is a woman who can be presumed to be progressive, at least on some issues (she is a former deputy editor of the New Statesman), who is claiming that illegal manifestations of homophobia and illiberalism are justified and respectable when backed by religious belief. I thought you might have an opinion on that.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 09:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
she is a former deputy editor of the New Statesman

But currently writes for The Telegraph.....

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 09:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I read it and I am referring to the same article.
by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 09:31:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you weren't.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 09:56:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What madness is this? Now you tell me what I have read? What next?
by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 10:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I charitably assumed that you weren't commenting the article I quoted, because your post made absolutely no sense in that context.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 10:58:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The article claims that homophobia was prescribed by Christianity and that it was a violation of religious freedom to force people who run a hotel not to discriminate against gays. It transports the same image of religion that you (from a different angle) have too. This attitude allows you to project all sorts of illiberalism on religion. Unfortunately the premise the author started with is wrong, and there goes your argument.
by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 11:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the premise the author started with is wrong

This would be a No True Scotsman argument. I'd say her version of Christianity is different from your religion. You protest being put in the same corner with discriminating religionists, but it's the other extreme to claim that the religion of those religionists whose views you dislike isn't a proper religion (but merely the mis-interpretation of a proper religion).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 11:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not saying it is not "proper religion". I am saying that there are two opinions inside religion, and that both religious right-wingers and atheist leftists deny that.  
by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm quite aware that many religions have diversity of opinion. I have had many left-wing Christian friends, and left-wing Moslem friends too.

Personally, I grew up with religious diversity, and intuitively accept it as the norm : in New Zealand, all of the British Protestant denominations, plus catholicism, were represented, with Anglicanism being the mainstream but by no means hegemonic (other than a handful of Jews, I knew no non-Christians until Buddhism, Baha'i, Hari Krishna and other such hippy shit became fashionable in the 70s). It was undoubtedly a "Christian" nation, but not dogmatically so.

For my own part, I was brought up without religious indoctrination from my parents, which led to me being defined by others, to my amusement, as an "atheist".

As an adult, I discovered that most countries have a hegemonic religion with centralised doctrine that has, or has recently had, strong influence over professed moral standards and laws. This is unconscionable to me, and my considered conclusion is that it is necessary to put a muzzle on religious influence in the public sphere.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 04:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently you are seeing how successful that exclusionary policy was in France.
by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 07:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm no cheerleader for the Jacobin state. It strikes me as not quite having broken free of the undercurrent of militarism, authoritarianism and paranoia that most successful revolutionary movements bring with them when they seize power. But facts must be respected: It does have a better democratic record than most. Including the German tradition of Christian Democrats.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 03:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you're not actually denying it's a religious point of view?

Well - that's progress, I guess.

Now, for extra credit, tell us which religious point of view is more common - the repressive one, or the liberal one?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 05:16:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did not say "religious point of view". I said "two opinions inside religion". What is unclear in my words? There is a fundamental change going on in our societies how partnerships and families are to be defined. This is happening inside the churches too, of course. What is surprising in that? In urban centres this development has progressed farther, in rural areas the development is slower. Does that really surprise you?

And what do you think is the position of the majority in our societies? The more liberal or the more repressive one?

And that's the time where several of you agreed to abolish the human rights of Muslim women, because you are no Muslim women and you are so very sure that your rights will survive.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 07:13:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did not say "religious point of view". I said "two opinions inside religion". What is unclear in my words?

Er - what? So there are two religious points of view instead of one? Or five? Or fifteen million?

And that changes the argument how?

you are so very sure that your rights will survive.

It's precisely because I'd like some vestige of my remaining rights to survive that I want to keep authoritarianisms of all kinds as far away from politics as possible.

Because when that doesn't happen, that always works out so well for everyone.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 08:44:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
Now, for extra credit, tell us which religious point of view is more common - the repressive one, or the liberal one?

The Swedish church (formerly state-church, now formally independent but very much dominant) has at least the last ten years been slightly less liberal on social issues then the state and a fair bit more socialistic on economic isues. The new top dog is even female, which the state has not for almost 300 years.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 08:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But would this have happened if the state hadn't been (somewhat) progressive to start with?

I'm finding it hard to think of any situation from history where an established church has acted progressively in opposition to the state without prior prompting from secular philosophies.

There have been occasional contributions from radical dissenters (e.g. Quaker abolitionists). But even then, there's state precedence - in that instance from Spanish law in the 16th century.

 

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 01:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find Katrin's example, the establishment of the legal status of conscientious objector, also had a lot to do with Quakers.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is also Liberation Theology. You may say that it was inspired by the rise of communism, but I don't think that that should deter from the point that it makes for a substantial contribution to any progressive movement in Latin America.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would argue that the current generation of Latin American left-wing movements (in Venezuela, Bolivia, etc.) owe their historical debts to the communists and anti-colonial indigenous movements. In fact, the comparative absence of Liberation Theology in their core legitimizing narratives is a quite remarkable testament to the effectiveness and viciousness with which Liberation Theology was wiped out as an effective organizing force for political emancipation.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 03:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you underrate how fundamental the influence of the movement was. It is not dead. The roots are in the ground and waiting.
by Katrin on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 04:07:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That remains to be seen.

But it doesn't really matter to my point: It is not an active and important part of the current left-wing renaissance in Latin America. The core legitimizing narratives of the current movements pay very little if any homage to it, and the demographics include far more indigenous movements (someone like Evo Morales is completely out of character as a figurehead for a Liberation Theology dominated political movement).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 04:30:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
State and church, they go together like a horse and carriage. With the Christian churches having roots in roman state power, and being power players the whole time, it is hard to come up with examples where they are relatively unaffected.

Well, for most of the 20th century smaller churches in Sweden were allied with the liberals against the privileges of the state church.

But for the Church of Sweden I think the formative thing is that it has been run for a long time as a civil service in a secular society. Church councils are elected in proportional elections with most of the main parties represented. The church has a higher percentage of visible nutters then the rest of society, but dominated by pretty reasonable people who have chosen a people-oriented career in a non-profit organisation.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can it be defamatory? Are you claiming the author is defaming herself? Or is she defaming her religion? Shouldn't you be talking to her about it rather than to me, if you know her religion better than she does?

I am not intending to project "all sorts of illiberalism on religion"; I am content to let religious people speak for themselves, in all their diversity. And then combat the illiberal ones (see also the article I posted below).

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 11:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
eurogreen:
Shouldn't you be talking to her about it rather than to me, if you know her religion better than she does?

Well, the debate is on, of course. After all, while she claims homophobia was a Christian rule, elsewhere gays are accepted in the church. So, how come that you assume I wouldn't talk to her or her ilk?

by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 01:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series