On Minority Rights and on Beliefs | 546 comments (546 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

Katrin:

Sure. They concern family relations. In an industrial society without unemployment and with public welfare you are free to choose your family relations and to give them up again, because they are not vital for physical survival. In a society that is not yet industrialised or in a industrial society that is falling apart sexual relations must be strictly regulated to stabilise family relations that carry economic meaning. Immigrants bring pre-capitalist values that disregard personal freedom

Very true and cogent.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 10th, 2014 at 10:43:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

You aren't going to suggest a new ban on any clothes, I hope?

by Katrin on Mon Feb 10th, 2014 at 10:59:55 AM EST
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Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

Seriously, Eurogreen, how do you set out to change attitudes if you have a minority that has brought values that are rejected (or at least considered not quite) in their new home? Even if you don't agree with the human rights angle, and only look what can be successful?

by Katrin on Mon Feb 10th, 2014 at 02:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

You start by making sure everyone - and that means everyone, even the gangbanger with a rap sheet longer than most people's arms - can get an honest job at an honest wage, and a roof over their head for a reasonable sum somewhere near reliable public transportation.

Then you make sure everyone has free and equal access to education, and that all kids are taught basic reading, writing, arithmetic and a bit of science and history.

If the problem persists after that, then we will hopefully have a clearer idea of what the actual problem is, because right now a large fraction of the problem is "disenfranchised underclass subculture."

There very probably still will be a problem, but solving that problem is non-trivial, so let's solve the trivial problems first.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 10th, 2014 at 03:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

LOL. Can we have a ban on pleated skirts too?

Seriously though: whatever real problems there are with immigrants who might import sorts of illiberalism that the natives do not already hold, they won't be solved in a climate of disrespect and humiliation.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 10th, 2014 at 04:06:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

Even if you don't agree with the human rights angle

I would prefer to say : "even if we don't agree on the human rights angle".

The right to wear what your parents want you to wear in school vs the right to experience inclusion in a wider, undifferentiated community.

I have no idea if you agree with, or have understood, my arguments about school as sanctuary, as enabler of choices; because you have taken great care to never acknowledge them. (Do you think your arguments would be weakened if you recognised those of others?)

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 03:57:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

eurogreen:

I would prefer to say : "even if we don't agree on the human rights angle".

That's perfectly okay with me.

I understand your argument about school as a sanctuary, as enabler of choices. It just happens to hinge on seeing all girls with headscarves as victims of parental force/pressure/sinister influence. Your argument denies the girls agency. Girls who wish to wear a headscarf simply don't exist in your argument.

You solely focus on girls who are made to wear it against their will. Okay to throw you a bone, let's focus on them. Probably this group of girls exists. The parents who do so have a range of motives, from certain views on the role of women to an emphasis on cultural roots in their country of origin, and perhaps even what seems to drive you: a fundamental enmity to the French state. Okay, to throw you more bones, let's assume that the nexus between headscarf and enmity of the state exists. You want to fight what exactly? A headscarf, not enmity to the state. You really must explain that.

Now let's focus not on the parents, but on the girls: Even for the group of girls who are made to wear a headscarf I don't see any advantage in a confrontation on one piece of clothing between school and parents. It disregards the psychological needs of children, even those who really are abused. If you can't respect the parents, the children can't develop self-respect. Children will almost always choose to side with their parents if you choose confrontation.

And could you explain why girls forced to wear headscarves are entitled to more sanctuary than girls forced to wear pleated skirts? I'd really like an answer to that. If your aim is supporting girls against oppressive parents, why only Muslim girls (who in their majority are immigrants)?

by Katrin on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 06:28:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

It just happens to hinge on seeing all girls with headscarves as victims of parental force/pressure/sinister influence. Your argument denies the girls agency. Girls who wish to wear a headscarf simply don't exist in your argument.

There is, obviously, no reliable way of knowing how much compulsion is involved, and how much is free choice (if it were possible to survey the proportion of scarf-wearing girls whose mothers don't wear one, that would be an indication). But my argument doesn't hinge on that at all. Nor does it focus on a denial of state authority by the parents. It's about enabling an environment where a girl's worth is not defined by wearing a headscarf or not, and where nobody has a right to make assumptions about her sexuality depending on whether her hair is visible or not. By extension, it is an environment where she is equal to boys, rather than subordinate to them. My opinion is that, in terms of human rights, this experience outweighs the fact that they are unable to choose their headwear freely.

As for "choosing confrontation" : once the crisis is past (in 2004/5, in France), the situation is normalised and internalised by all. Girls respect the rules at school. Which is not to say that they, or their parents, are necessarily happy about it. I takes two to choose confrontation; and once parents have understood that the rules will not change, by and large they live with it.

(what, exactly, do "pleated skirts" symbolize to you, in terms of ideology, implications about women's role in life etc? Also, what subset of girls, in which country/subculture, are forced to wear them? I'm curious.)

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 06:49:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

eurogreen:

There is, obviously, no reliable way of knowing how much compulsion is involved,

Exactly. This doesn't show in your words though, where you always assume compulsion, not free will.

It's your theory that the headscarf is necessarily about a girl's "worth" or assumptions about her sexuality (sexual behaviour). Sometimes it is a statement about her regional roots or a statement of defiance in the face of discrimination. More often it is a statement on sexuality in the sense of physical integrity. Even where it is a statement about restricting women's roles, this message does not need the headscarf (or the pleated skirt in my childhood which symbolised exactly that). Parents who teach their daughters that their place in life is a subordinated one, may choose to impose certain clothes, but these clothes are only a symptom).

My point with the pleated skirts is that the same sexist views that you say you fight by a ban on headscarves exist among the natives too. You still choose to fight the headscarf, and that makes your message morph to something like "sexism is a Muslim problem." That is not only playing into the hands of Islamophobes (I hope I have found a wording that doesn't make you explode again) but into those of native sexists too.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 07:54:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

The problem about your "pleated skirts" mantra is that it is meaningless to me. I now imagine that if I went to a high school in your region, I could identify the girls who are repressed by their Christian parents? Is that right?

Parents who teach their daughters that their place in life is a subordinated one, may choose to impose certain clothes,

Good to see we agree on that!

but these clothes are only a symptom

They are clearly understood as such. My point is that it is legitimate to ban such "symptoms" from school, because they are harmful to a girl's development.

Or is a constant reminder of one's subordinate status a good thing? I fear it may provoke cognitive dissonance, in a school environment where a subordinate status with respect to males is neither required nor approved of.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 09:09:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

Do you deny that there are "western" dress codes that are imposed where parents impose certain--subordinate--role models? From the pleated skirts of my childhood (and long afterwards. The shop that catered for parents like mine changed ownership in 1998) to the pink Princess-stuff or Barbie stuff: the same thing, only more varied according to class.
eurogreen:

Or is a constant reminder of one's subordinate status a good thing?

You don't take the point that the ban of clothes typical of immigrants is a reminder of immigrants' subordinate status, do you? The debate, and the ban,is only about the headscarf of the immigrants, not the clothes the natives use for similar purposes. I note that the moment these clothes come into the focus you try the next externalisation "girls who are repressed by their Christian parents?" No, girls who are repressed by their "western culture" parents, and who, depending on class background, can be identified by their clothes from pleated skirts to Barbie stuff. I should think a ban on immigrants' clothes in a school environment where a subordinate status with respect to natives is neither required nor approved of.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 10:57:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

You don't take the point that the ban of clothes typical of immigrants is a reminder of immigrants' subordinate status, do you?

A reminder to whom? Not to an independent observer, because the girls become indistinguishable from their classmates.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 11:15:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

Hm. No visible difference between native French and immigrants? Really not?

by Katrin on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 04:58:45 PM EST
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Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

(I wondered if you'd take the bait...)

A large plurality of French Moslems of North African origin are Berbers, i.e. of European rather than Arab type. A large proportion of the others fall well within the range of skin tones etc of "native" French people. Add to that the fact that, in places where some women of North African origin wear headscarves, there are also large numbers of non-headscarf wearing North African women.

So, indistinguishable from their classmates. Really.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 07:40:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (4.00 / 2)

There is, obviously, no reliable way of knowing how much compulsion is involved, and how much is free choice

Actually, some of the articles quoted in this discussion interviewed fired girls who insisted on wearing hearscarves at school against the advice of their parents. Maybe in a link from Wikipedia I also read of an example from before the ban in the nineties when a girl became an obvious "born-again Muslim" fundie (the same way boys do), and even rejected a compromise offer allowing her to wear a headscarf but calling on her to attend science and physical exercise classes. This latter case indicates to me that there are other ways to identify forced or voluntary fundies than enforcing headscarf bans with zero distinctions and a threat of expulsion.

It's about enabling an environment where a girl's worth is not defined by wearing a headscarf or not, and where nobody has a right to make assumptions about her sexuality depending on whether her hair is visible or not.

That sounds nice, but by having headscarf-wearers expulsed, the ban assuming all of them to be proselytizing fundies, and switches the onus of neutrality from the state to the citizen (perhaps you missed this).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Feb 12th, 2014 at 08:12:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

Well, choose your anecdata. Obviously, those who considered the headscarf ban an important human rights issue found articulate, outspoken girls who chose to wear a headscarf (or chose to defend it, once it became an issue, whatever their original reason for wearing it). The fact that it was easy to find such cases naturally leads the journalist or blogger (who has a narrative to tell) that this is the prevalent situation.

But consider : those girls who wear scarves because that's what is expected, and what the family wants, are also expected to not put themselves forward, because it's not their place to be in the limelight.

So you get a self-selecting sample, which can not be expected to be representative.

(perhaps you missed this)

No, I must have read it a dozen times since it was published ten years ago.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 07:21:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

I don't think I or the article claimed that one example is the prevalent situation. The reason I brought it up was to counter your impression of an exclusive or all-prevalent situation (which was free of any data, anecdotal or not).

I must have read it a dozen times

Yet you ignore it.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 07:33:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

I neither made nor implied any such claim; on the contrary, I made it clear that, regardless of the different motives that might have inspired girls to want to wear scarves in school, their education would be better served by not wearing it. And that this is within the purview of the schools.

And yes, I remain unpersuaded by the writer's thesis. Sure, the spirit of the law of 2004 is not the same as that of the law of 1905; times have changed. The question was seen as stopping a snowballing situation (the holiest girls wear scarves, others are shamed into joining them...) which ends up with a strongly proselytizing effect.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 09:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

If you can't respect the parents, the children can't develop self-respect. Children will almost always choose to side with their parents if you choose confrontation.

That runs counter to the personal experience of some of my childhood friends. So I'm going to ask you to prove it. With data.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 01:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

What sort of data do you expect? You can't compare the psychological impact of teacher X's confrontative behaviour towards parent Y with that same teacher X's behaviour towards the same parent, but now in cooperative style. You can only research the situation in certain schools before and after you run a programme teaching teachers to establish cooperation with parents. If you are really interested, I could probably recommend books (in German mainly), both with the angle of teachers' cooperation with parents of pupils, and not unrelated, cooperation between social parents and birth parents. Here respect towards the birth parents is even more vital for the children's self-respect (and more difficult to maintain).

If your childhood friends say something else, I wonder how old they were when the confrontation took place. And did they tell you about it with the distance of adulthood or then, as youngsters compelled to be "cool"?

by Katrin on Tue Feb 11th, 2014 at 05:22:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

Nobody in my circle of childhood friends labored under any particularly burdensome standard of "being cool." And their parents had lost their respect all by themselves.

Yes, there are kids who side with their parents and don't think there's any problem.

There are also kids who put on a brave face and make the best of what they realize is a shit situation.

And then there are also kids who put on a brave face because their experience with society's institutions is that the first, and often only, response is to make mouth-noises at the abusive parent, instead of actually solving the problem.

I don't know which of those three groups is the more prevalent, and it is probably different for different age brackets. But then, I'm not the one who makes blanket statements about the reaction of the vast majority of kids.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Feb 12th, 2014 at 07:20:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

You don't answer my question about age. I can absolutely not fathom at which point of child psychology you disagree or if you simply aren't conversant with attachment theory. Or is your question not meant as nomothetically as it sounds? You baffle me, and I have no idea which sort of material ("data") you need. I was NOT talking about "kids who side with their parents" or "kids who put on a brave face". Additionally you seem to be talking about social services not intervening in cases of abuse. Did you notice that I was discussing HOW social services should intervene in cases of abuse? What do you know about bonding in childhood and adolescence?

by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 08:31:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

I can absolutely not fathom at which point of child psychology you disagree

I disagree with a lot of points about child psychology as practiced, and I find most of the little psychological theory I have read to be an equal mix of common sense and nonsense, wrapped in far too much polysyllabic jargon.

I also have some difficulty relating the theory-as-written to the actual practice.

And in both theory and practice I far too often for my comfort find myself unimpressed with the answers to simple questions like "do you have any evidence for that?"

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 02:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On Minority Rights and on Beliefs | 546 comments (546 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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