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The above was on literalism. Anti-contraception Catholics are different, because they start with a norm, that sex is only permitted with a wish to procreate, and conclude with a ban on contraceptives. Logically they can't do anything else as long as they don't abolish the norm. Nothing to do with belief clashing with facts, though. It's about enforcing norms.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 12th, 2014 at 08:55:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where, in this scheme, would you place a belief that is not a fact-claim per se, but so obviously insane that it can only be sustained by systematically lying about related fact-claims?

For example, the doctrinal Catholic attitude to sex?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Feb 12th, 2014 at 06:45:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The doctrinal Catholic attitude to sex is prescriptive, not a belief. I wouldn't agree that it is "insane", although it clashes with basic psychological human needs (but that is intentional) and perpetuates an image of humanity that I don't share. But still, it is prescriptive, not descriptive, and the question of fact vs belief doesn't arise.
by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 08:36:49 AM EST
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The doctrinal Catholic attitude to sex is prescriptive, not a belief.

Whereas belief is descriptive? What?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 08:50:43 AM EST
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The Catholic sexual morals are about required behaviour and condemned behaviour, not a description of behaviour (or "fact-claim").
by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 02:05:12 PM EST
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Because there's no theory of human nature (i.e., statement of "fact") in Catholic morals. Right.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 02:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a non-factual (and therefore, according to you, not amenable to being repressed as misinformation) religious doctrine (which parents according to you must therefore be free to impress upon their children), which requires systematic lying about fact-claims to support.

I'm curious how you propose to square that circle, because suppressing factual misinformation will in this case quite clearly also suppress a particular religious doctrine as collateral damage. Or collateral advantage, for those who, like I, find it a loathsome doctrine which does not have any place in civilized society.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 01:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not sure that the official Catholic sexual moral requires systematic lying about fact-claims to support. It is a condemnation of many forms of human sexual behaviour. That is not so much a fact claim as setting the rule that the behaviour is undesirable. I am very much in favour of involving the Catholic church in debate about it, from the outside and from the inside, because we agree that in reality the undesirable behaviour is that of the church issuing these ratings and rules. I criticise parents who tell their children to behave according to this dogma, but I don't think their behaviour is necessarily abusive. I wouldn't remove the children or so. Their behaviour falls neither in the category of what I approve of nor in the category of what I want banned. There are several loathsome doctrines around which do not have any place in civilized society as I want it, but one must tolerate that people adhere to them.
by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 02:31:25 PM EST
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The Catholic Church implicitly disagrees with your assessment that its sexual doctrines can be supported without systematically lying about factual matters.

(Assuming, that is, that the Catholic Church prefers not-lying over lying when possible. Which is, of course, a claim one might challenge.)

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 02:57:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Fact : God gave us naughty bits in order to procreate within the bounds of holy wedlock. Any other utilisation of said naughty bits is expressly prohibited : this is written in the book of rules. That is all."

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri Feb 14th, 2014 at 03:51:13 AM EST
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eurogreen:
...this is written in the book of rules. That is all.

"Rules", exactly.

by Katrin on Fri Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:55:33 PM EST
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