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Wait, what? Why would that be unsatisfactory? Better to make some stuff up rather than tell the truth?

I'd much rather tell the kids "I don't know, let's go find out" or "I don't know, and neither does anyone else" than make some stuff up. I'll go along with Santa, but the moral I'll use it to teach later on is not one I suspect you're going to like ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 11:00:28 AM EST
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You are giving the answer to your own question there: I would answer to these questions either "I know" or "one can't know, but I believe" or "I know how we can find that out". I would not simply answer "I don't know" and leave the child alone with that answer. That would be highly unsatisfactory and kill the child's curiosity.
by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 11:04:21 AM EST
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What's wrong with "One can't know"? What you need to tack "I believe" on for?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 12:03:16 PM EST
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Because although (undisputedly) one can't know where grandpa is now that he is dead, I would find it unsatisfactory and even cruel to break off the conversation at this point. I wish to have the option to tell a child what I believe where Grandpa is. This option what is in dispute, though.
by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 12:37:52 PM EST
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Of course that option is not in dispute.

What is disputed is the propriety of presenting only your belief on the matter. What is wrong with saying. "Nobody knows. Some people believe such-and-such. Some people believe so-and-so." With or without appending "I believe this-and-that."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 12:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yes, this option is exactly what is in dispute. It is exactly this behaviour which constantly gets called "indoctrination" or "forcing one's kids".

You would apparently wish that when I speak about my beliefs I mention the fact that other people have other beliefs. I am not averse to that, in fact that is what my children always used to ask in a certain age. And then I answered that. They used to ask about certain persons and soon detected patterns of orthodoxy and unorthodoxy.

Why is it important that I add the information unasked?

by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 01:15:36 PM EST
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Please bear in mind that the problem is notyou, a non-authoritarian parent who is happy to expose her children to different viewpoints. [without wishing to speak for everyone, I'm pretty sure nobody would accuse you of brainwashing or mind control]

The issue is the average religious parent [and if you think that's the same thing, you haven't been around].

If the authoritarian parent delivers the official religious viewpoint about a particular question, you may be sure that she will not offer alternative views, or encourage the child to think about them. And that is a problem, as I'm sure you will agree.

And I'm also sure you will answer "but the problem is not religion, it's authoritarianism". Which is true.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 01:38:40 PM EST
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eurogreen:
And I'm also sure you will answer "but the problem is not religion, it's authoritarianism". Which is true

But it is so much more fun to harp on "The issue is the average religious parent" instead of "The issue is the average authoritarian  parent" I assume. For, why else should you do so, if you already know that the problem is not religion, it's authoritarianism.

By the way, I have never said I had an issue with atheism. The problem is not atheism, it is intolerance.

by Katrin on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 02:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As long as authoritarian behavior justified (or excused) on religious grounds is given more deference than authoritarian behavior in general, then the unmerited respect society holds religion in is a part of the problem.

As long as authoritarians can use religious rhetoric to rally people who really ought to know better into defending their abuses, then sorry, but religion really is a problem.

And as long as religious rhetoric is inseparably laced with a number of malicious social engineering tricks, it will always be under suspicion by people who don't like to be brain-hacked.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 02:16:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a thought experiment for you, then :

A non-religious authoritarian group ordains that all its members must wear a distinctive hat at all times in order to symbolize their obeissance to their Great Leader.

Parents belonging to this group insist that their children should wear these hats at all times. The children are not allowed to take their hats off at any other time (except in the bath or in bed).

Should schools allow the hats to be worn?

(I'm guessing that you're going to find this upsetting and insulting?)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Feb 14th, 2014 at 03:55:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
eurogreen:
(I'm guessing that you're going to find this upsetting and insulting?)

No, but I find it so unrealistc that it is boringly easy to answer. And is it really so unclear what I find upsetting and insulting in this debate, and why? (That's a question. If I get a "yes" for an answer, I can clarify)

You are back at reducing the headscarf (which lurks behind your ominous hat) to a symbol of obeisance to authoritarianism, and the act wearing them as unvoluntary and enforced, and all the the girls who do as victims without agency. We have been here before. First of all, Islam (and religion in general) is not authoritarian. Some practices are. In those cases where compulsion plays a role, the ban on headscarves doesn't solve the problem. In the better case of compulsion you haven't altered the situation, in the worse case you harden positions of parents and girls. Some girls consent to wearing headscarves in order to achieve more freedom in other fields, and a ban on this strategy increases their problems. In many other cases there is no compulsion, and you are banning girls from wearing a piece of clothing that is important or even essential for practising their religion (if you want to harp on your non-religious group: for a social network they attach importance to), or that is important for them for other reasons. One motivation for wearing a headscarf which you consistently ignore or ridicule is setting a counterpoint to the compulsion to objectifying clothing, by the way.

So much for your thought experiment. You can't claim it was realistical, can you? If you have a phobia against hats, do something about it. If you can't see that there are many reasons to wear a headscarf or a hat, you are blind to reality. And if you want to do something against authoritarianism, fight authoritarianism.

by Katrin on Fri Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:52:44 PM EST
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