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JakeS:
No, that's actually quite straightforward. If somebody decides where your bed is, what you eat, when you sleep, how much money you have to spend, what you can spend it on, where you spend the majority of your waking hours, and even to some extent who you am allowed to socialize with in your free time, then they wield power over you

If, yes. In reality children aren't THAT weak-willed, and your parental options to enforce all that are limited, with good reason. And these limits enforce a more democratic education style than what was usual when I was a child. So, parental power depends to a certain extent on negotiation skills on both sides.

JakeS:

No, the school and penal systems should be neutral because they wield power over its inmates. The fact that they are state institutions (in most of the first world) is neither here nor there - the fixation on protecting citizens from the state, rather than from abuse of asymmetric power relationships in general - is a pernicious Libertarian obsession.

Ha, THAT can of worms probably deserves a better place than somewhere in this long thread. You probably don't deny how quickly democratic control of a state can break down, and how totalitarian the immense power of the state then becomes. I am quite fixated on protecting citizens from the state, and not shy about it.

No, institutions of the state should be neutral, because they are for all citizens, not only the religious ones. In a (theoretical) state of 100% voluntary adherents of the same religion it wouldn't matter.

JakeS:

That is not true for sexual or racial harassment. Why should we expect it to be for religious?

Because efficient proselytising implies persuasion, not harassment. I find it unlikely (or extremely rare), not impossible. But I really find the example of the doctor is where you can illustrate your point best, and I agree that the abuse of power is a problem. You cited this as an argument to limit parents' right to raise their children in a religion though. You asked how to deal with the combination of position of power and proselytising.

This is from the text you quote:

in the end to me it's all about the patient and I'm not about to do anything that makes the patient feel uncomfortable or lose confidence in me,

Indeed. That is the ethical position we expect from a doctor, and have a right to expect. And we can enforce it by sanctioning behaviour that disregards these responsibilities.

If you want an analogy to parents raising their children, you must look at what we expect as responsible behaviour there. I have no issue with rules to prevent abuse of power under the heading of what is (ir-)responsible behaviour for a defined group. I object to rules under the heading of limiting freedom of religion. This difference sounds perhaps academic, but I think it enables drawing the border between tolerable and intolerable behaviour accurately. The rules (and sanctions!) for a doctor must be different from those for parents.  

I am afraid, I have an issue with your differentiation between legality and propriety. Propriety or moral are not political. Do you want to legally ban and sanction a certain behaviour? Or do you want to ape the politicians who lamented the use of "financial instruments" as improper that they had legalised? Well, if next they declare bicycle theft legal but improper, everyone is free to steal bicycles and that is all that counts. So the only question is what parents can do before you send out child welfare officers.

JakeS:

In principle. In practice, I am having some difficulty coming up with a realistic example of not-belief imposing on believers

At last. I am quite content with "in principle" and I have no issue with your lack of imagination. ;)  I guess any thoughts what you are going to teach your own children are a bit premature, right? Only then you need to determine what is proper more than what is legal, of course.

by Katrin on Fri Feb 14th, 2014 at 12:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If, yes. In reality children aren't THAT weak-willed, and your parental options to enforce all that are limited,

No, they really are not.

Pre-teen children have no formal voice on where they go to school (nevermind whether...).
Pre-teen children have no formal voice on where they live (unless their biological parents happen to have divorced and they live in one of the world's more progressive jurisdictions).
Pre-teen children have no personal finances, nor any legal means of obtaining a regular income. Which in an urbanized society means that they have no independent legal means of obtaining food and shelter.

Pretending that those barriers to self-determination can be overcome by sufficient application of willpower is nothing short of delusional.

Of course there are excellent reasons for society to recognize certain parental prerogatives and deny certain choices to pre-teen children. But the fact that there are good reasons for the asymmetric power relationship to be tolerated doesn't change the fact that you are talking about an asymmetric power relationship.

Because efficient proselytising implies persuasion, not harassment.

You seem to have a very rosy view of both how durable the human mind is under sustained harassment and how the currently dominant religions became the dominant religions.

Indeed. That is the ethical position we expect from a doctor, and have a right to expect. And we can enforce it by sanctioning behaviour that disregards these responsibilities.

I sincerely wish that your experiences with the healthcare system continue to be so positive as to permit you to maintain that outlook.

In practice, it's hard enough to even nail doctors for sexually abusing their patients, nevermind emotionally abusing them.

I object to rules under the heading of limiting freedom of religion.

So if the dude who decides whether you get to eat tonight - or any night at all for the next six to twelve years - insists that you say grace over the food before you get to eat it, then that's not a problem for your religious freedom?

Or is it that children have no religious freedom?

Or is it just that you don't understand how freedom from religion is an indispensable part of freedom of religion?

I am afraid, I have an issue with your differentiation between legality and propriety. Propriety or moral are not political. Do you want to legally ban and sanction a certain behaviour? Or do you want to ape the politicians who lamented the use of "financial instruments" as improper that they had legalised? Well, if next they declare bicycle theft legal but improper, everyone is free to steal bicycles and that is all that counts. So the only question is what parents can do before you send out child welfare officers.

I disagree with the idea that society has no escalation points between cheap talk and sending in child protection.

The difference between banks and parents is that where parents enjoy the presumption that they are reasonable and responsible, banks should be regulated under the presumption that they are Ponzi merchants and three-card monte dealers.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 14th, 2014 at 10:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
mountebanks?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 07:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
So if the dude who decides whether you get to eat tonight - or any night at all for the next six to twelve years - insists that you say grace over the food before you get to eat it, then that's not a problem for your religious freedom?

Believe me, parents have no choice, they are obligated to feed their children. Actually the power of parents is limited--which really was what I have tried to convey. To shorten this part a bit: you are talking about relationships where people might be able to force persons into a religion. I don't advocate force or abuse of power or the like.

What you don't accept, I think, is the following: parents have a system of values which they pass on to their children. Religion is only one part of this, but, it IS part of what parents do by right. When you teach your children what your values and ethics and beliefs are (by conversations, setting an example or whatever) they have no real choice either. They are confronted with their parents' values and can only develop their own priorities when they are growing up. So, there is no real freedom from religion for the children of the religious or freedom to adopt religion for the children of atheists as long as they are children.

JakeS:

I disagree with the idea that society has no escalation points between cheap talk and sending in child protection.

I don't want to depend on somebody's opinion of what is proper or not. I have really strong views on arbitrariness and so. If society wants to set a norm, that's called a law, but you were talking about additional norms set by propriety. Say what behaviour you want to outlaw, and what interventions you dream of if the banned behaviour occurs. And if you want to limit any fundamental rights, kindly point out why your proposal is a proportionate measure of maintaining a conflicting fundamental right.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 10:21:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What you don't accept, I think, is the following: parents have a system of values which they pass on to their children. Religion is only one part of this, but, it IS part of what parents do by right. When you teach your children what your values and ethics and beliefs are (by conversations, setting an example or whatever) they have no real choice either. They are confronted with their parents' values and can only develop their own priorities when they are growing up. So, there is no real freedom from religion for the children of the religious or freedom to adopt religion for the children of atheists as long as they are children.

That is perfectly fair, and even if it were not it is obviously unavoidable.

It also falls quite far short of what is commonly understood by the purported parental "right" to induct children into a religion, or a political orientation. And even farther short of what is commonly justified by appeal to that "right."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 01:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
It also falls quite far short of what is commonly understood by the purported parental "right" to induct children into a religion, or a political orientation.

Does it? I wonder what "commonly understood" means for you? I really should ask you for evidence for that statement...

by Katrin on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 03:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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