On Minority Rights and on Beliefs | 546 comments (546 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (4.00 / 2)

So you're not actually denying it's a religious point of view?

Well - that's progress, I guess.

Now, for extra credit, tell us which religious point of view is more common - the repressive one, or the liberal one?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 05:16:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 0)

I did not say "religious point of view". I said "two opinions inside religion". What is unclear in my words? There is a fundamental change going on in our societies how partnerships and families are to be defined. This is happening inside the churches too, of course. What is surprising in that? In urban centres this development has progressed farther, in rural areas the development is slower. Does that really surprise you?

And what do you think is the position of the majority in our societies? The more liberal or the more repressive one?

And that's the time where several of you agreed to abolish the human rights of Muslim women, because you are no Muslim women and you are so very sure that your rights will survive.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 3rd, 2014 at 07:13:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

I did not say "religious point of view". I said "two opinions inside religion". What is unclear in my words?

Er - what? So there are two religious points of view instead of one? Or five? Or fifteen million?

And that changes the argument how?

you are so very sure that your rights will survive.

It's precisely because I'd like some vestige of my remaining rights to survive that I want to keep authoritarianisms of all kinds as far away from politics as possible.

Because when that doesn't happen, that always works out so well for everyone.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 08:44:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (4.00 / 2)

ThatBritGuy:

Now, for extra credit, tell us which religious point of view is more common - the repressive one, or the liberal one?

The Swedish church (formerly state-church, now formally independent but very much dominant) has at least the last ten years been slightly less liberal on social issues then the state and a fair bit more socialistic on economic isues. The new top dog is even female, which the state has not for almost 300 years.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 08:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

But would this have happened if the state hadn't been (somewhat) progressive to start with?

I'm finding it hard to think of any situation from history where an established church has acted progressively in opposition to the state without prior prompting from secular philosophies.

There have been occasional contributions from radical dissenters (e.g. Quaker abolitionists). But even then, there's state precedence - in that instance from Spanish law in the 16th century.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 01:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (4.00 / 2)

I find Katrin's example, the establishment of the legal status of conscientious objector, also had a lot to do with Quakers.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

There is also Liberation Theology. You may say that it was inspired by the rise of communism, but I don't think that that should deter from the point that it makes for a substantial contribution to any progressive movement in Latin America.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Made. Past tense. (none / 0)

I would argue that the current generation of Latin American left-wing movements (in Venezuela, Bolivia, etc.) owe their historical debts to the communists and anti-colonial indigenous movements. In fact, the comparative absence of Liberation Theology in their core legitimizing narratives is a quite remarkable testament to the effectiveness and viciousness with which Liberation Theology was wiped out as an effective organizing force for political emancipation.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 03:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Made. Past tense. (none / 0)

I think you underrate how fundamental the influence of the movement was. It is not dead. The roots are in the ground and waiting.

by Katrin on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 04:07:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Made. Past tense. (none / 0)

That remains to be seen.

But it doesn't really matter to my point: It is not an active and important part of the current left-wing renaissance in Latin America. The core legitimizing narratives of the current movements pay very little if any homage to it, and the demographics include far more indigenous movements (someone like Evo Morales is completely out of character as a figurehead for a Liberation Theology dominated political movement).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 6th, 2014 at 04:30:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Minority Rights and on Beliefs (none / 1)

State and church, they go together like a horse and carriage. With the Christian churches having roots in roman state power, and being power players the whole time, it is hard to come up with examples where they are relatively unaffected.

Well, for most of the 20th century smaller churches in Sweden were allied with the liberals against the privileges of the state church.

But for the Church of Sweden I think the formative thing is that it has been run for a long time as a civil service in a secular society. Church councils are elected in proportional elections with most of the main parties represented. The church has a higher percentage of visible nutters then the rest of society, but dominated by pretty reasonable people who have chosen a people-oriented career in a non-profit organisation.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 03:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On Minority Rights and on Beliefs | 546 comments (546 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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