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I can't think of any people who would treat children like that

Unfortunately, most religious people I knew were like that (and I emphasize I mean 'normal' people; I had very little to do with pastors and priests). Stressing that humans have souls while other animals lack them was a particular point of confrontation I remember from childhood.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 07:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My own anti-epiphany happened in my first year at school when the - really quite avuncular, kindly and civilised - teacher assured us with a straight face that 'Thou shalt not kill' didn't apply if god had ordered you to defend your country.

I'm beginning to wonder what kind of religious ghetto Katrin lives in, because it so clearly has almost nothing in common with the majority experience of religion.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 08:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "religious ghetto" is the Lutheran Church. As mainstream as you can get here. I am not saying that the intolerant or overzealous weren't there somewhere--but in my experience they aren't dominant to the exclusion of diversity of views or the abuse of children's independence of thought. All differences and conflicts considered: it is no way like what you describe as your experience.
by Katrin on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 10:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I am allowed to start yet another sidetrack: do you have an explanation for the fact that the German Lutheran Church is losing (tax-paying) members even faster than the Catholics? This was always a mystery to me: IMHO the main reason for the dwindling of the Catholics in almost all Catholic-majority areas of Europe is the ugliness and viciousness of the clergy, while the German Lutheran clergy is quite the opposite. The only explanation I could come up with was that modern German Lutheranism makes ditching religion too easy by voiding all the compulsion (including the threat of social expulsion). That is, with only a little exaggeration: it became too tolerant to sustain itself.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 02:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that is it. You really have no disadvantage for not being a member.
by Katrin on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 04:35:43 PM EST
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Same with Church of Sweden. Pretty much all publicity is bad publicity for them as it reminds people to leave. They had a campaign for people to vote in the Church election which reached many, prompting people to leave. Not that the campaign was bad or that there was not voting options for every taste, but just by reminding people that they are members.

Similar with the Swedish royalties. As long as they just do some ritual ribbon cutting they are popular, but when they do stuff that puts them in the spotlight - even positive things like weddings or kids - their popularity goes down as people are reminded of what a strange institution it is.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 04:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. Voting rights (but most people don't vote anyway), and of the two godparents of a child at least one must be a member (but one is enought), and in order to get married in church one of the partners must be a church member (but you don't marry that often in your life). I think that's it with the list of disadvantages.
by Katrin on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 05:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now now. I already wrote about this in the other sub-threads. She comes from the "ghetto" of northern Germany, where mostly Lutheran and to a great part grass-roots Christian groups participated in underground movements against the Third Reich, more recently participated heavily in the peace and anti-nuclear movements of the 1970s and 1980s, also played a major role in East German pro-democracy protests before Reunification, still form a major part of protests against neo-Nazi gatherings (often alongside communists), and are a loud voice on the side of refugees against xenophobes. The acrimony in the debate in this diary is because you in Britain and France and elsewhere have no local experience of such Christian public activism and are ignorant of it elsewhere (beyond Germany, I recall some similar examples in Italy and the USA), while Katrin seems ignorant of the fact that this type of Christian activism is not that typical elsewhere in Europe.

To add another regional flavour: in my region, there was also some contribution to pro-democracy movements around 1989 (more from the Catholic Church in Poland and more from small Protestant groups in Hungary for example), but since then, religion-based political activism is mostly several times uglier than in France, and even the social activism – that is, charity work, mostly with the homeless – doesn't go along with a social agenda but a didain for those helped. (I know Calvinist charity workers who took an overseas holiday on charity money and consider the needy whom they help sinners.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 02:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For Italy, see cattocomunismo.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 04:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks for welcome context, DoDo.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 06:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He could have just told you that it was a mistranslation, and that it really should be something like "Thou shalt not commit manslaughter". And there are plenty of verses telling you the opposite (see Psalm 137:9 for one of the most notorious).
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 04:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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