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The Süddeutsche article also fails to indicate that the site owner wasn't merely selling but organised the making of the films. Meanwhile it's unclear from the sources so far whether the "legal" and "illegal" stuff were the result of the abuse of the same children or "produced" independently.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 03:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently there are two sets of site owners--the first batch got arrested, and then someone else continued to sell material. (More info about the press conference, and timeline)

For judging if the purchaser did something criminal it is irrelevant how the photos were made. It is only relevant if they were child porn, whose purchase and possession is illegal, or if the photos were merely showing naked children, without any sexual behaviour or focus on genitals. The possession of the latter is legal in Germany. And: not "legal". Legal.  

by Katrin on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 04:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your link goes to a blog comment without sources. It claims that there have been arrests in 2011, which doesn't rhyme with the November 2013 report of the arrest of the guy who founded and operated the site since 2005. (Edathy purchased between 2005 and 2010.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 04:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a link to the video of the press conference in that comment. I just liked the transcript, because it saves time.
by Katrin on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 04:42:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the Toronto Star's reporting, it appears that the site owner was arrested in 2011, but the other arrests were made successively ever since as material was evaluated. November 2013 was when the operation was made public. This article appears to describe how some of the "naked boys" videos came to be.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 05:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The second Toronto Star link, about the former convicted German sexual offender turned child karate instructor in Romania who filmed his students half-naked and later (on request from Azov Films) made them pose fully naked until some parents caught wind of his doings, and Azov Films' general use of a legal cover, made me think about the legality.

I think abuse and exploitation doesn't just derive from the content of pictures, but the way they are used. Even if the sellers only turn misappropriated pictures from family albums and paparazzi shots taken at nudist strands into erotic merchandise, the paedophile buyers must realise that there was no way the children or their parents would have consented legally to such use and would indeed be shocked to find their pictures spreading on internet sites and private collections. It's worse when the children are made to undress and pose for the specific purpose to make such merchandise, and again the buyer cannot deny awareness that such pictures won't be shot just by accident. This makes Edathy1s defence very cynical. If current legal definitions in Germany or anywhere else don't cover this as illegal (which I wasn't convinced about), then, the same way current concepts of limits on sexual behaviour came to be in a shift, it must be made illegal, even if drawing a line is difficult; rather than allowing paedophiles to retain a legal front to continue their abuse.

However, this is the end of the debate for me, because I don't have the stomach to dwell into the precise legal definitions and past legal enforcement practice which is needed to further analyse what is and should or could remain legal or illegal.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 16th, 2014 at 05:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My focus is on the fundamental rights of a suspect, and here I am very, very dogmatic, and not prepared to tolerate violations because the alleged crime is so disgusting (or for any other reasons). I don't find Edathy's defence cynical: basically he is saying "come and prove a crime if you can". That is his right. Need I really point out that a suspect is under no obligation to prove his innocence, he IS innocent unless the the prosecution proves their case? Would that question be necessary if the alleged crime was something else than sexual abuse of children (which is REALLY not synonymous with paedophilia, by the way)?

The question if the law must be altered, and the possession and trade of photos of naked children be made illegal is an entirely different thing, and one I am not sure about. (And I mean "not sure about", not that I know I would reject it). This is not the right thread for that discussion though.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 16th, 2014 at 07:03:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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