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9.54am GMT

AP have filed this report from Donetsk in the east of Ukraine where pro-Russian sympathies are strong about the differences between western and eastern Ukrainians.

For AP the contrast can be explained by looking at the cities of Donetsk and Lviv. "The eastern city of Donetsk can seem like a cliche of post-Soviet grimness, a place of Stalinist-era apartment blocks, tin-roofed shacks and loyalty to Russia. In the west, Lviv has emerged as a center for Ukrainian artists and writers, a huge draw for European tourists and a city desperate for closer ties to the West."

"I have always felt that we are so different," said a miner who gave his name only as Nikolai, a thickset 35-year-old who went from high school directly into the mines. People speak Russian across most of Ukraine's east, and worship in onion-domed Orthodox churches. They were shaped by 70 years of Soviet rule and its celebration of socialist industrialization, and by the Russian empire before that. To them, the government is now being run by outsiders who care little for this side of the country. "If they try to pressure us, our region will revolt."

"We are simply different people from those living in the East," said Ludmila Petrova, a university student in Lviv, a hotbed of support for Ukraine's pro-democracy forces and opposition to Yanukovych. "They don't know what the West is. We have a different history. Maybe it is better that we separate once and for all."

"The country is already separated," said Ivan Reyko, a 30-year-old factory worker from Donetsk who joined a recent demonstration of about 100 people in the city's main plaza, Lenin Square, where a 30-foot-tall statue of the Soviet hero gazes proudly toward the horizon. "There is no way back to a united Ukraine."

OK . Now tell me what a fuck is this if not an ugly warmongering propaganda even in your "reliable" Guardian . They better shut up and look at their own back yard. I can imagine how different Londoners (if only from some elite parts of London) may feel comparing to for example people from Sheffield where nothing happened in last 30 years and where it actually looks like some God forgotten town in fallen USSR.I visited UK two years ago and that's my impression. Their London Heathrow Airport looked like some old dirty railway station in some God forgotten Eastern country.
They better stop this shit.Maybe they can sell it to increasingly poor Brits who can hardly travel anywhere but to nearest supermarket and do not know that world changed a lot lately.  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 02:03:53 AM EST
Why is it that you cannot accept that Ukraine is more complicated than your exclusively pro-Russian view?

Do you really believe that there are no Ukrainians that see their future as "Western" or "European", without being puppets for CIA propaganda?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 02:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think and never said that there are no Ukrainians that see their future with West and EU...but I would like to first see proper REFERENDUM about it. You Europeans had referendums to decide if you want to go to EU ( UK is even planing to have one more again to check people's will and maybe even get out, and some countries had them over and over again because they didn't want it at first so they had to be pushed a bit).
Why Ukrainians are less of the people then you so EU and USA had to help those tugs to come to power and simply DECIDE for Ukrainians to sign ASP agreement to go to EU and most importantly NATO? Are Ukrainians all idiots?
Being puppet of USA unfortunately seem to go together with membership of EU.And seems like there is no choice for countries (at least those new members)  to become members of EU but not Nato members automatically?
EU/USA was the side that gave them ultimatum " either with us or against us".Big mistake.
I am not Pro Russia at all but I am sick of USA bullying especially after fall of USSR. Enough is enough!World is not just west.There are other cultures and other interests. You need to learn to play fear (remember democracy) and unfortunately it seems that it is not possible without show of force on the other side.That's a curse of human nature...seems like we are not that far from animals at all...  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 06:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's the issue, I think:  You keep banging on about western propaganda and acting as though folks here aren't aware of it.  It's more than a tad offensive.  Folks here are pretty bright.

Then, hilariously, you post stuff from the opposite side of the propaganda divide and seem oblivious to it being no better.

I already know the Washington Post is shit.  But you don't seem to know that Voice of Russia is shit too.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 08:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course I know ...I am not that stupid.
Why I am posting Russian sites (amongst western sites) is because I am searching for trace of truth...anywhere...amongst tones of propaganda on all sides.
Why I am "accusing" some people here of being intoxicated with western propaganda? Because they seem to quote happily just western sites and very rarely the other side.I am not going to name people here ( as requested)...I am not in the business of dividing this community.And I will respect anyone's opinion (but as his personal opinion not as a quote from western media). We have to be aware that if we happily quote those western media propaganda pieces without counter.opposite one's, from the other side, it is same if we are part of that same propaganda machine...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 03:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A key bit -- again, as I said, folks here are pretty bright -- is knowing not just where to get info, but when and from whom and how.

I can go to the New York Times and read what they have to say about any issue.  And 95% of it is garbage written by airhead reporters looking for an easy story to write.  Ditto the Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, the BBC, etc.

But I also know that I can read a few people and get some decent insight and analysis, or read stories and pick up what's not bad and what's bullshit.  Understanding the subtleties of the news industry is important.  I understand some, but I'm by no means an expert, because understanding it fully really requires a knowledge of culture and institutions that's above my pay grade when we get to a global scale.

From my perspective, here's what's happened (others feel free to chime in and correct me):  A large group of Ukrainians don't like Yanukovych.  A large group of Ukrainians disagree.  It sounds like the latter group is slightly larger than the former.  Yanukovych fled as the protests escalated.  The US and the EU somewhat supported the protesters.  Russia somewhat opposed them, albeit to a reater degree.

(I always have mixed feelings on that whenever such situations arise.  Obviously I support the right to protest, but elections were held, and Yanukovych won.  He should have the right to serve his term until he's removed by legal means without fear of violence.)

From there, an interim government took over.  Within that government, a lot of dangerous people seized sensitive positions in the defense and intelligence areas.  Right Sector and all of those thugs.  Putin responded by invading Crimea -- probably in part to protect the Russian population, probably in part to try to hold onto his sphere of influence, probably in part due to a whole bunch of other shit.

Putin then held a referendum with what appears to be a ridiculous result.  (C'mon, you can't get 90+% of people to agree on anything.)  The US and EU responded by freezing the assets of a few Russians.  And here we sit.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 08:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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