Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Why is it that you cannot accept that Ukraine is more complicated than your exclusively pro-Russian view?

Do you really believe that there are no Ukrainians that see their future as "Western" or "European", without being puppets for CIA propaganda?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 02:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think and never said that there are no Ukrainians that see their future with West and EU...but I would like to first see proper REFERENDUM about it. You Europeans had referendums to decide if you want to go to EU ( UK is even planing to have one more again to check people's will and maybe even get out, and some countries had them over and over again because they didn't want it at first so they had to be pushed a bit).
Why Ukrainians are less of the people then you so EU and USA had to help those tugs to come to power and simply DECIDE for Ukrainians to sign ASP agreement to go to EU and most importantly NATO? Are Ukrainians all idiots?
Being puppet of USA unfortunately seem to go together with membership of EU.And seems like there is no choice for countries (at least those new members)  to become members of EU but not Nato members automatically?
EU/USA was the side that gave them ultimatum " either with us or against us".Big mistake.
I am not Pro Russia at all but I am sick of USA bullying especially after fall of USSR. Enough is enough!World is not just west.There are other cultures and other interests. You need to learn to play fear (remember democracy) and unfortunately it seems that it is not possible without show of force on the other side.That's a curse of human nature...seems like we are not that far from animals at all...  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 06:21:02 AM EST
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Here's the issue, I think:  You keep banging on about western propaganda and acting as though folks here aren't aware of it.  It's more than a tad offensive.  Folks here are pretty bright.

Then, hilariously, you post stuff from the opposite side of the propaganda divide and seem oblivious to it being no better.

I already know the Washington Post is shit.  But you don't seem to know that Voice of Russia is shit too.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 08:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course I know ...I am not that stupid.
Why I am posting Russian sites (amongst western sites) is because I am searching for trace of truth...anywhere...amongst tones of propaganda on all sides.
Why I am "accusing" some people here of being intoxicated with western propaganda? Because they seem to quote happily just western sites and very rarely the other side.I am not going to name people here ( as requested)...I am not in the business of dividing this community.And I will respect anyone's opinion (but as his personal opinion not as a quote from western media). We have to be aware that if we happily quote those western media propaganda pieces without counter.opposite one's, from the other side, it is same if we are part of that same propaganda machine...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 03:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A key bit -- again, as I said, folks here are pretty bright -- is knowing not just where to get info, but when and from whom and how.

I can go to the New York Times and read what they have to say about any issue.  And 95% of it is garbage written by airhead reporters looking for an easy story to write.  Ditto the Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, the BBC, etc.

But I also know that I can read a few people and get some decent insight and analysis, or read stories and pick up what's not bad and what's bullshit.  Understanding the subtleties of the news industry is important.  I understand some, but I'm by no means an expert, because understanding it fully really requires a knowledge of culture and institutions that's above my pay grade when we get to a global scale.

From my perspective, here's what's happened (others feel free to chime in and correct me):  A large group of Ukrainians don't like Yanukovych.  A large group of Ukrainians disagree.  It sounds like the latter group is slightly larger than the former.  Yanukovych fled as the protests escalated.  The US and the EU somewhat supported the protesters.  Russia somewhat opposed them, albeit to a reater degree.

(I always have mixed feelings on that whenever such situations arise.  Obviously I support the right to protest, but elections were held, and Yanukovych won.  He should have the right to serve his term until he's removed by legal means without fear of violence.)

From there, an interim government took over.  Within that government, a lot of dangerous people seized sensitive positions in the defense and intelligence areas.  Right Sector and all of those thugs.  Putin responded by invading Crimea -- probably in part to protect the Russian population, probably in part to try to hold onto his sphere of influence, probably in part due to a whole bunch of other shit.

Putin then held a referendum with what appears to be a ridiculous result.  (C'mon, you can't get 90+% of people to agree on anything.)  The US and EU responded by freezing the assets of a few Russians.  And here we sit.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 08:28:45 PM EST
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