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but I showed better evidence than the guns
I've been skimming, so I'll have to read back through.
I'm deeply worried about the jingoism on all sides about this one. An actual shooting war involving the United States and Russian Federation would be very, very bad.
My views are probably colored by being here in the US, and seeing things Fox News asking why we aren't at war with Russia yet. Or even inflammatory piles of shit like this on Daily Kos.
The idea that what happened in Kiev was a CIA operation is a reach to far for me. That someone in Right Sector, or the like, got the bright idea that a final provocation was needed. That's something I'd like to see excluded as a possibility through a thorough investigation. And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
another semi-suicidal political ploy, like the budget obstructionism. 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
I do think that a substantial part of the Republican party has a hard on for escalation, because they think that they can use this as a talking point for building LNG facilities to export to Europe. Newt Gingrich was all over this on CNN..... And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
newt, holy cow, is he the best they got? 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
Yes, the warming-up New Cold War is full on in the media. Worse: in Europe, too, the media is for escalation, and that even against their own pro-negotiation governments. But they don't think about what they want the governments to do, to achieve what, not to mention thinking about unintended consequences like a runaway escalation. This morning I saw an interview with an Austrian government representative who tried to bring this point across very carefully, and had to repeat it multiple times to a clearly dissatisfied public TV journalist. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
This morning I saw an interview with an Austrian government representative who tried to bring this point across very carefully, and had to repeat it multiple times to a clearly dissatisfied public TV journalist.
this is unfortunately becoming the norm, constant leading questions that breathlessly attempt to corner the subject into going beyond what he says into speculative territory of what the worst thing that could/will happen would be. there's a kind of obsessive compulsion to amp everything up into the scariest possible level.
us? but we are only reporting! media is out of control in the same way big banks or the MIC are. coincidentally... 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
I meant the very first post in this thread (Snipers from the SBU, duh). Now I found further confirmation in a Spiegel article from three days ago; from an anonymously interviewed Ukrainian oligarch who fled to Moscow (Note: "ALFA unit" was the inofficial name of the KGB hit teams, inherited by post-Soviet successors):
Post Yanukovych Ukraine Looks to Avoid Past Pitfalls - SPIEGEL ONLINE
Oleg can effortlessly recite the names of section heads responsible for issues pertaining to Russia and Ukraine in the foreign ministries of Western European capitals. He knows them all. He soberly recounts how Europe rebuffed him and his delegation while the Kremlin ratcheted up the economic pressure on Ukraine in recent years. "The EU should have gotten involved," he says. Then Oleg explains the preparations made by Yanukovych to storm Independence Square, the location of the mass protests that ultimately brought down his government. Oleg says he knows that fighters from the elite ALFA unit were responsible for setting fire to opposition headquarters and that ALFA snipers opened fire on demonstrators from the rooftops of surrounding buildings. "Everything went according to plan. But then Yanukovych suddenly flinched and ordered the offensive to be stopped," Oleg says. He says that when foreign ministers Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Laurent Fabius and Radoslaw Sikorski spent the night negotiating with Yanukovych on February 20-21, the Ukrainian president's aides were busily preparing his escape. "They packed up suitcases and boxes. In the end, the helicopters were so heavy that they could hardly take off," Oleg says.
Oleg can effortlessly recite the names of section heads responsible for issues pertaining to Russia and Ukraine in the foreign ministries of Western European capitals. He knows them all. He soberly recounts how Europe rebuffed him and his delegation while the Kremlin ratcheted up the economic pressure on Ukraine in recent years. "The EU should have gotten involved," he says.
Then Oleg explains the preparations made by Yanukovych to storm Independence Square, the location of the mass protests that ultimately brought down his government. Oleg says he knows that fighters from the elite ALFA unit were responsible for setting fire to opposition headquarters and that ALFA snipers opened fire on demonstrators from the rooftops of surrounding buildings. "Everything went according to plan. But then Yanukovych suddenly flinched and ordered the offensive to be stopped," Oleg says.
He says that when foreign ministers Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Laurent Fabius and Radoslaw Sikorski spent the night negotiating with Yanukovych on February 20-21, the Ukrainian president's aides were busily preparing his escape. "They packed up suitcases and boxes. In the end, the helicopters were so heavy that they could hardly take off," Oleg says.
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