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I thought redstar saw no democratic legitimacy in the EU. That's why I'm confused about his stance.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sat May 31st, 2014 at 12:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer to why redstar would vote for Le Pen in France is essentially the lack of a viable left option. The goal there is "the worse, the better" trolling of the Parti Socialiste. One may disagree, but the fact that this is redstar's position has been very clear for a long time.

How that interacts with democratic legitimacy is more complicated. But again, if you believe France should credibly threaten to pull out of the Euro, who do you vote for? The Euro is the brainchild of the French Socialist élite (Mitterrand, Delors...) And now Hollande has become a supply-sider: The real scandal is France's stagnant economic thinking (Wolfgang Münchau, 19 January 2014)

The third significance lies in the fact that the new consensus spans the entire mainstream political spectrum. If you live on the European continent and if you have a problem with Say's Law, the only political parties that cater to you are the extreme left or the extreme right.
But as redstar has explained, the Front de Gauche tied itself to Hollande's mast before the municipal elections earlier this spring, and so sealed their fate.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 07:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, independently of redstar's personal choices, I have no truck with that sort of world view with respect to political alliances.

The fact that people of the PCF cannot imagine that they might ally themselves with the PS in municipal elections, and have different positions at a national or European level, is pretty much why I am unlikely to vote for them, ever. The Leninist notion of democratic centralism is just so powerfully destructive. Alliances should be tactical and results-driven, and the principle of subsidiarity should apply.

And in fact, the PCF didn't even ally itself systematically with the PS at the municipal elections (for example, in Lyon, they ran lists against the PS mayor) -- redstar (and the national press) got pretty excited because they ran with the PS in Paris; I consider this to be a local matter, to be settled by Parisians, which should not unduly affect the debate on a national level, much less on a European level.

I would find it very surprising indeed if the FDG delegation to the EU parliament should turn out to vote with EPS, and against GUE/NGL, on questions concerning economic or monetary policy. Which is why I find it incoherent to be happy with their poor result in France, and with their relatively good overall result in the EU.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 08:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Leninist notion of democratic centralism is just so powerfully destructive.

Could you elaborate? The way I see it, redstar is actually defying democratic centralism by rejecting a PCF decision once made.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 12:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was reacting to Migeru's narrative, of how the PCF's positioning in municipal elections (in Paris, centre of the known universe), made it impossible for redstar to vote FDG in the EU elections. No doubt a misuse of the term. The idea is more the all-or-nothing, black/white mindset that allows a PCF activist to contemplate switching to the mortal enemy, the FN (just as, in the 20th century, there were numerous switches between the PCF and the Catholic churcg)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 04:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
many times, the PCF's tonedeafness on Europe and the Euro is a big problem too.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The goal there is "the worse, the better" trolling of the Parti Socialiste.

To which the PS of today will react with more... xenophobia. The message won't even arrive.

But again, if you believe France should credibly threaten to pull out of the Euro, who do you vote for?

Is FN a single-issue party? Would redstar have been okay with the Nazis just for ditching Brünning's policies?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 12:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
things but Nazis they are not.

Anyhow the true quislings today in europe are people like Hollande/Valls, or Zapatero and now Rajoy, who do not even wait for the Brussels/Berlin diktat, and are happy to implement austerity without prodding, with predictable results.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 04:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice way of sidestepping the question...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Discussion is a nice way to sidetrack the whole discussion.

Probably the reason Godwin's law was drawn up

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was in the other thread, but Brünning was brought into the discussion by Migeru. (And don't get me started about Godwin's Law.)

Let me ask directly: is the FN's rampant xenophobia no problem for you?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is far less than it was. Far far less.

But again, I don't see the same question being asked to the french-based social-democratic types as to whether they have a problem with Manuel Vall's regular appeals to xenophobia (racist comments while Mayor in l'Essonne, deportations of Roms, et c.)

Why don't these get talked about?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 05:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
some of us are closer to a party which called Valls on it, and refused to enter his government.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 06:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
complimentary things about them at the time.

But unfortunately EELV is too wedded to Europe. Their slogan "give life to Europe"...well they are either naïve or they haven't been watching as Berlin has been giving life to a Europe I can only reject. All the while EELV's cheerleader in Germany, Cohn-Bendit, has been cheering them on (and ridiculing your party's current leadership).

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 1st, 2014 at 06:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They do, here on ET. I suspect they are not considered central to the Socialist platform.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2014 at 04:07:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not see the xenophobia as being rampant

You avert your eyes.

I don't see the same question being asked to the french-based social-democratic types ... Why don't these get talked about?

Who are the French-based social-democratic types here? If you want to troll Jerôme, he is not around. I for one have regularly exposed Valls in the Newsrooms and remember several discussions, and you can't deny that his line was the PS's reaction to the FN's success.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 01:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Success. When he was mayor of Evry Marine Le Pen hadn't even been elevated to leader.

He has wanted to be Sarkozy in PS label for a very long time. Small wonder, it works here. Why? Ultimately, because not enough jobs duh.
Not that the PS plans to actually do anything about that.

As for social democratic types this pretty much fits the bills for the lot of you. And the KPD was right about how y'all are.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 01:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The stalinist KPD was never right about anything. And happily nationalist anyway.
by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 06:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 07:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgotten nothing and learned nothing, what?

Now wonder you have that warm feeling of comradeship with fascists -  then and now.

by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 07:54:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to be clear that was me posting the youtube video (that I hope can be seen in Germany) as an interpretation of what redstar meant with the KDP reference.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 09:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I misfired.
by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 07:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vall's racism predates by a lot the FN

Now you're intentionally obtuse. First, Valls was mayor from 2001, that's just a year before le Pen got into the second round against Chirac, and FN had successes well before that. Second, what really matters is not what he did as a relatively unknown local politician, but what he did with full approval of the PS leadership, his PM and his President once he became interior minister. And years before Valls, his supposed role model Sarko was trying to out-FN the FN, too. But you know that full well.

Marine Le Pen hadn't even been elevated to leader

What does that have to do with anything? You keep pretending that we have had a (1) single-issue (2) French Presidential election and that (3) the FN candidate started with a clean slate and (4) without any party membership. In truth, we had an EP election, with several issues, FN had a party list loaded with the same old faces and plans alliances with forces in other countries sharing its "values" in much more than sovereignist opposition to the Euro. I could go on, but if you are in denial about the views of ET's resident FN supporter (fredouil) then you will remain in denial about it all.

As for social democratic types this pretty much fits the bills for the lot of you.

LOL! Shifty, aren't you? First it was "French-based social-democratic types" whom you surmise to be hypocritical about Valls, now that you can't locate a single one of those, everyone is a social democratic type? I suspect only a handful of us voted for S&D members, so your definition of "social democratic type" must be rather wide. In fact I wonder if you now classify those still faithful to the FDG as "social democratic types".

the KPD

Let's talk about the PCF, which you are bolting for the fascists. What happened to them that they lost credibility with you? How could it have happened? Come to think of it, how capitalist can China's Communist Party become before you see them in a worse light than the PCF now?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 11:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
bullshit about revoking citizenship. Even made it to front web page of PS press organ Le Monde.

http://mobile.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2014/06/03/decheance-de-nationalite-valls-imprecis-va lls-amnesique_4430975_4355770.html

When we talk about racism in politics in France, there is a larger context. It is general, and MLP is not worse than Manuel Valls in my opinion.

As to adherence to social democracy and liberalism, I am especially talking about this site's historical primary patron. Not around much...conveniently...so as not to have to apologize for his party.

Finally in PCF we have a hack who is about one thing only...keeping what little power remainimg in place. Not renewal, not convince people, just keep old crusty mayors in place. He thought he had to ally with the PS, primarily because he is a profoundly stupid man. Of course, the lost virtually everywhere, and because of it, anywhere near the capital. And they are still in denial.

When the party in Beijing starts losing elections I might start talking like you expect. But that may also be a ways off.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I missed that. I am shocked and angry. I'm disappointed that nobody from EELV seems to have reacted publicly; I hope that if there were still EELV ministers, they would have called him on it (with the obvious corollary of resigning from his government : which is reason enough for the decision not to enter it).

This is the equivalent of talking about the death penalty after a paedophile murder. It's pretty hard to stand up and say "This anti-semitic terrorist jihadist should keep his French nationality", but of course there is no way, constitutionally, that he could lose it (born French, in France, to French parents, he holds no other nationality).

Thinking it through : I could lose my nationality (there have been about 20 cases in the past 20 years) : because I acquired it, and because I hold another : if I committed an act of terrorism or high treason. [On checking : No I couldn't, because I've been French for more than ten years now. Phew.)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 4th, 2014 at 05:49:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for social democratic types this pretty much fits the bills for the lot of you.

Ahem.

Also, too.

I can haz a stop to this leftier-than-thou bullshit?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 05:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes I need a reminder.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well yes, in this logic Cameron/Clegg are quislings too.
by IM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 06:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even worse than the others for they really really don't have to be doing what they were doing.

unless it comes down to defence of class intrrest of course.  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jun 3rd, 2014 at 10:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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