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Given the tenor the comment thread is taking, I think the points made in this article are relevant: Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds (05.27.14)
So, a question, to my fellow male nerds:

What the fuck is wrong with us?

...

We are not the lovable nerdy protagonist who's lovable because he's the protagonist. We're not guaranteed to get laid by the hot chick of our dreams as long as we work hard enough at it. There isn't a team of writers or a studio audience pulling for us to triumph by "getting the girl" in the end. And when our clever ruses and schemes to "get girls" fail, it's not because the girls are too stupid or too bitchy or too shallow to play by those unwritten rules we've absorbed.

Also, this is mostly a male comment thread.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2014 at 11:18:44 AM EST
I had replied to that.
by das monde on Mon Jun 16th, 2014 at 12:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reason I'm staying out of it.  Libraries are full of texts "mansplaining" women.  feh


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Tue Jun 17th, 2014 at 02:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really full? More full than the literature for women? Have you seen anything like this?
by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 04:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... You realise you linked to a book about women, written by a man, for men?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 05:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is what we are talking about, no?
by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 05:57:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well, you were talking about "literature for women", so I don't see the point of a link which illustrates what AT was talking about.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 06:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The context was "Libraries are full of texts 'mansplaining' women."

So I wondered, how do shelves for women and men compare in actual libraries - or in the whole amount of literature.

by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 06:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I worked out precisely what's so creepy about the whole philosophy: it's a study and justification of how to exploit the damage done to women by culture and society so the men involved can get their rocks off.

(That it requires pretty damaged men to think that this is a morally acceptable idea of a good time is true, but slightly beside the point: being damaged doesn't excuse exploiting the damage done to others and doing further damage, though it does explain it.)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 05:17:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Judging from the choices women consistently make, the most creepy, annoying, damaging experiences they get are from the "all heart no spine" guys. Within the feminist culture as well.
by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 05:36:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And this came with a free  caricatured  out-group too. What good value.

Was there a 90-day money back guarantee?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 05:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By caricatured out-group do you mean women or girly men?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 05:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, girly men.

Women aren't even people in this set-up, they're objects to be manipulated.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 05:59:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or an alien species. On which: Scientists succeed in crossing a man with a woman!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 07:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could you give us an update what happened to the outcome? The article is from 2010....
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 07:07:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Women aren't even people in this set-up, they're objects to be manipulated.
What I said two weeks ago was:
Women are human beings? Certainly. Especially when it comes to emotions, a guy has to look at a woman humanly without reciprocity expectation.

What is "not manipulating people" supposed to mean? Any happy examples?

by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 07:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"All spine, no heart" must be just as mean caricature, no?

If you are so interested, I get some money back from perhaps the most women friendly coaching program. Did not get why they would not pay attention to my particular circumstances, or why they discouraged to resolve them more quickly.

by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 06:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"All spine, no heart" must be just as mean caricature, no?

Yep, and a deeply damaging one too.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 06:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Women certainly are more mean to them.
by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 06:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
das monde:
Women certainly are more mean to them.

What's starting to come through is das monde is subtly expressing a doubt that feminism is going to last long as the inequality gap widens. More women are going to realise how the fastest way to enter the alpha circle is to project their favour onto alpha men, budding 1%ers.

This is depressing but possibly true...

I believe part of the problem is that the most successful women playing alpha in a patriarchy have to internalise the 'rules of the game' and often become more male than males in order to beat us on our own turf.

Maggie, Hillary, Carly, Angie, Theresa May and the gang are only serving feminism obliquely in the least inspiring way. They are like spiritual transvestites, dolled up as women while out-toughing men on the economic and political battlefields.

I saw an interview between Paxman and Hillary the other day that showed Hill in a better light than when she campaigned for President. Possibly she has transcended the previous phase and can model femininity and politics in a more authentic way, that would be really interesting if it survived the gruelling 2 year marathon of the campaign.

I had experience with a career lady lawyer from L.A. once and it was an eye-opener listening to her tell of how difficult it was for her to find a man who was not intimidated by her salary.

Thankfully there are (a few) women who see through the status marking games and use their access to their own wholeness (encouraged by enlightened feminism) to encourage men to transcend the pissing contest of ego territoriality and seek security in relationship between equals, where both genders share in flexible roles. This intimacy can only be enjoyed when those roles are left at the door.

Then there are women who choose weaker men to punish for the centuries of unfairness inflicted on them, but that's another story!

I wish you better luck in finding women who are looking for more than BSDs, because then you may feel differently about the destiny your words imply, ie that we will all regress once we realise our ecological limits and the middle class disappear and go back to patriarchy.

You may just have been hanging out with the wrong crowd!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 10:33:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This intimacy can only be enjoyed when those roles are left at the door.
I have to disagree here. I am pretty convinced now that hierarchy role games are an important (if not the key) part of sexual attraction. Career lady lawyers are surely sick of intimidating everyone! Feminism would need centuries to change biochemical triggers. And the favour projection towards the 1% alpha is not a logical choice for the most women, I have to suggest.

So you related this diary to me living in Greece, nice! You would expect that above average employment and prospects would be a good sell in a crisis stricken country. But no way you can rely on that! I do not remember pickier women anywhere else (or ever?). Thus I resorted to internet search soon, haha.

by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 11:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to disagree here. I am pretty convinced now that hierarchy role games are an important (if not the key) part of sexual attraction.

They certainly are for adolescents, and for many adults, see my remarks about highly gendered sexual scripting. But what Melo is suggesting (also Wife of Bath), is that to have a mature, equal relationship then you need to leave that hierarchy stuff out. All of us have played these games, many of us have left them behind.

And by the way... Don't knock internet matching. I would recommend it strongly for anyone who is having difficulty meeting a compatible partner.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 11:28:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks! I feel so much more competent now than a year ago.
by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 11:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I always thought the hierarchy went:

Alpha Males
Alpha Females
Beta Females wanting to be alpha females
Beta Males
Gammas (who are pretty much out of the game in both sexes)

That's certainly how American jock/cheerleader culture seems to work. The cheerleaders slut-shame the female betas 'under' them while having far more random sex than they do, because that happens to be an efficient way to get an alpha husband you can divorce later, and they don't want the competition from their social inferiors.

So far as I can tell from a comfortable distance, being labelled a slut by the popular girls in high school is far more devastating to female self-esteem than anything the boys can say to them.

All the alphas are afflicted with textbook narcissism, which pretty much defines the alpha mindset. Deviations from an idealised image are not allowed.

Here's a female startup founder talking about her job interview style:

Q. What would cut an interview short for you?

A. If somebody is negative at all about anything, it's done for me. If they describe a past job as not fun, I am literally done because it's your job to make your life fun, and it's in your hands. If you didn't figure out how to make something of it, you're not going to figure out how to make something of it here.

Now, no obvious slut-shaming happening here. But woe betide you if you show honest feelings or - worse - an ability to think critically about your work environment, because that marks you out as a loser.

The unconscious irony is strong in this one:

Q. What are some things that are unusual about your culture?

A. Every month, an employee wins the gnome that we named Chomsky, and employees submit a "gnomination" for who they think deserves it most. The winner gets to have Chomsky on their desk for a month and they get $1,000. We read to the entire team why they deserve the award, which is tied into our four leadership principles.

So... alphas are alphas. Male and female alphas do alpha in somewhat different ways, but they're both primarily interested in controlling their environment to maximise their self-image.

For an alpha woman, or a wannabe alpha woman, settling for a non-alpha man would be considered a terrible narcissistic wounding.

Which is why talking about 'men do...' or 'women do...' is stupid. You need more levels to get the nuance.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 11:33:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your comment is spot on.
by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 11:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
All the alphas are afflicted with textbook narcissism, which pretty much defines the alpha mindset.

Haha, I just watched a political talk show (run by a woman, not that that matters!) where a right-wing 30 (+-) year old woman was talking about Renzi as being a narcissist and then added -completely without irony, (I know they don't do irony)- "... not that being a narcissist is a bad thing to be, actually the opposite!"

All is Vanity... ;)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 12:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the flip side, the liberuls, the modest white/blue collars, and the poor are really looked down by those people.
by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 03:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Italy 'liberuls' is a term for people who want low taxes, no regulations and no moral proscriptions from the state.

Think 'bunga-bunga'.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 04:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The ones you're talking about here are called 'Grillini'. ;)

More grist for your mill:

All the Single Ladies - Kate Bolick - The Atlantic

Whether the sexual double standard is cultural or biological, it's finding traction in the increasingly lopsided sexual marketplace that is the American college campus, where women outnumber men, 57 percent to 43 percent. In 2010, The New York Times ran a much-discussed article chronicling this phenomenon. "If a guy is not getting what he wants, he can quickly and abruptly go to the next one, because there are so many of us," a University of Georgia co-ed told The Times, reporting that at college parties and bars, she will often see two guys being fawned over by six provocatively dressed women. The alternative is just to give up on dating and romance because "there are no guys," as a University of North Carolina student put it.

Last year, a former management consultant named Susan Walsh tried to dig a little deeper. She applied what economists call the Pareto principle--the idea that for many events, roughly 20 percent of the causes create 80 percent of the effects--to the college dating market, and concluded that only 20 percent of the men (those considered to have the highest status) are having 80 percent of the sex, with only 20 percent of the women (those with the greatest sexual willingness); the remaining 80 percent, male and female, sit out the hookup dance altogether. (Surprisingly, a 2007 study commissioned by the Justice Department suggested that male virgins outnumber female virgins on campus.) As Walsh puts it, most of the leftover men are "have nots" in terms of access to sex, and most of the women--both those who are hooking up and those who are not--are "have nots" in terms of access to male attention that leads to commitment. (Of course, plenty of women are perfectly happy with casual, no-strings sex, but they are generally considered to be in the minority.) Yet the myth of everyone having sex all the time is so pervasive that it's assumed to be true, which distorts how young men and women relate. "I think the 80/20 principle is the key to understanding the situation we find ourselves in--one in which casual sex is the cultural norm, despite the fact that most people would actually prefer something quite different," Walsh told me.



'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 06:10:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She applied... the Pareto principle... and concluded....

How much empirical work did she do? I was told the numbers are even more skewed.

by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 11:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll run that one past my sister, when I next see her... she's an epidemiologist, currently studying harmful behaviour linked to alcohol consumption on US campuses ("epidemic of rape" etc)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Jun 19th, 2014 at 06:56:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Generically, I'd guess that like all "self help" organisations, their methods work for some people and not for others, and that their focus is on making money, and preserving their reputation is a major part of that. So if it wasn't working for you, it is probably worthwhile for them to refund and let you move on, rather than having you hanging around dissing them on the net.

"Money-back guarantee" is very different to "results guaranteed".

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 06:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I will say it once: it felt good to quite that.

Getting results is always own responsibility, indeed.

by das monde on Wed Jun 18th, 2014 at 07:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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