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That's the only value to the Farages, [l]e Pens etc, not that their vision is any healthier but they do name names and want to upend the status quo.

Austerity will continue unless these rogue parties capture enough votes to unseat this creepy crew running Europe into the ground. Morale will decidedly not improve with Jun[c]ker, Holland[e], Merkel and Renzi.

You continue to ignore the existence of the European United Left (Tsipras-like) and cheering the ugly parties. Must be because Grillo hitched his wagon to Farage...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2014 at 12:55:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you think the EUL is doing a good job of being opposition?

Thanks for the spelling corrections!

I am not 'cheering' the ugly parties of UKIP and Le Pen, I have deplored them. The only thing worse is the Troika.

Tsipras is very worthy indeed, and I am 'cheering' them on. They have a long way to traction, while Mv5 are already giving Italy a view of what a real opposition should be. Too bad you can't see it from there. Mv5 claim they're beyond L/R, but I don't hear Tsipras on TV here suggesting conflict of interest, parliamentary immunity, election system, citizens' income, broadband rollout, renewable energy prioritisation, anti-mafia, anti-corruption, anti-F-35 laws.

Tsipras seem like really nice people, but they're as much a sideshow as Vendola on the Left, or Scelta Civica on the Right. La Lega has many more votes.

What is satisfying is watching the Right trying to rally ranks and re-invent themselves. It's pretty hopeless, yet the media give them much more airtime than Mv5. They just don't want to get it that there's a big change happening. Every day evidence adds up that the ideology by both C-L and C-R is hokum, balderdash, bullshit, because it plain doesn't work. Years of appointed technocrats have not made the rabbit appear from the hat, and Renzi, as I said here when he first popped out of the woodwork is old wine in a new shiny bottle, Italy's TB infection, Tony Bliar.

Renzi is holding his party together with the fickle chewing gum of charisma. Parliament remains hung on the election reform, which was supposed to be their only job before giving back the voting rights to the citizenry. Meanwhile new election law is being crafted in a secret meeting by a convicted criminal who's not even allowed to vote! National debt is rising the deeper the austerity cuts, and the best Padoan can do is suggest more of the same Troika treatment abuse. I mean, come on! Mv5 is the only real opposition with any bite from what I can glean combing through the MSM and the blogs here.

I'm sure De Gondi could give you a much more informed, complete picture, but he ain't around much these days, more's the pity!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2014 at 02:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I do think GUE/NGL is doing a good job of being opposition.

The M5S, on the other hand, by allying itself with Farage (which you deplore) has succeeded in putting itself beyond the pale: the EPP, PSE and ALDE allied themselves to deny Farage's group (and the M5S) any institutional roles (committee chairs or vice-chairs, for instance). While some in the Green and Left groups have criticised this as a violation of democratic principles given the size of the Farage group, there appears to be a sort of cordon sanitaire in place. So, good luck with effective opposition from there. Even the eurosceptic AfD is doing better (though Bernd Lucke was excluded from the bureau of the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee), because they're in Cameron's group.

People following this conversation may not be aware there's a small political group in Italy called "L'Altra Europa con Tsipras" which got three MEPs (most prominently, Barbara Spinelli). Of course, having a foreign namesake doesn't help anyone get traction in national politics.

Regarding Tsipras and Grillo: Alexis Tsipras a In Mezz'Ora: "Beppe Grillo non capisce: la rabbia da sola non basta" (Huffington Post Italy, 6 April 2014)

"Anni fa abbiamo guardato al fenomeno Grillo con simpatia perché era figlio della rabbia dei cittadini italiani, ma la rabbia da sola non basta. Grillo fa finta di non capire l'importanza della realtà europea". Intervistato da Lucia Annunziata a In Mezz'Ora, Alexis Tsipras, candidato per la sinistra europea a presidente della Commissione Ue, non fa sconti a nessun politico italiano, a cominciare dal leader del Movimento Cinque Stelle.

Secondo Tsipras, i nemici da sconfiggere alle prossime elezioni europee sono più d'uno: da un lato c'è il populismo, colpevole di voler "disgregare l'Ue"; dall'altro ci sono le politiche di austerity che hanno fatto solo male al progetto europeo. "Per noi - ha aggiunto Tsipras - l'Europa è il terreno di una lotta di classe".



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2014 at 04:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
While some in the Green and Left groups have criticised this as a violation of democratic principles given the size of the Farage group, there appears to be a sort of cordon sanitaire in place. So, good luck with effective opposition from there.

I guess they are scared of something, huh?

Look, bonding with Farage may well be the dumbest thing they ever did, I grant you that. It never warmed my fuzzies either. If it was a gamble to get their ball upfield and then the goalposts were moved, then we get to see how EU realpolitik rolls, that's always good! Cordon sanitaire, good one.

But what you don't reflect on it seems is that MV5 haven't espoused Farage's platform, they just have some coincident goals, primarily sorting out this dog's dinner of a currency foisted on us. (Not that it's the currency per se that's at fault, just its ridiculous mis-management.) If it weren't for the rules being as they are I guarantee they wouldn't have done it. A lot of their followers are gagging on it and unless it leads to better ends, it may cost them big time at the box.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 08:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why didn't Grillo join the GUE/NGL? We know why he didn't join the Greens: they vetoed him because he had been in talks with Farage.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 02:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
The M5S, on the other hand, by allying itself with Farage (which you deplore) has succeeded in putting itself beyond the pale: the EPP, PSE and ALDE allied themselves to deny Farage's group (and the M5S) any institutional roles (committee chairs or vice-chairs, for instance).

And to get more committee chair and vice-chairs to hand to ALDE. MEP Wikström, ALDE (and committee chair thansk to this deal) defended it as a natural step in making a coalition.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Parliament remains hung on the election reform, which was supposed to be their only job before giving back the voting rights to the citizenry. Meanwhile new election law is being crafted in a secret meeting by a convicted criminal who's not even allowed to vote!
Yes, I heard... from L'Altra Europa con Tsipras.
L'Altra Europa con Tsipras invita tutti e tutte coloro che l'hanno sostenuta a essere presenti martedì 15 luglio a Roma sotto il Senato e a promuovere e a partecipare a tutte le iniziative per sbarrare la strada al progetto anticostituzionale della coppia Renzi-Berlusconi. Conitnueremo la presenza mercoledì 16 luglio. In molte città tra martedì 15 luglio e mercoledì 16 luglio stiamo organizzando volantinaggi e presidi.
I mean, come on! Mv5 is the only real opposition with any bite from what I can glean combing through the MSM and the blogs here.
Well, I'll grant you the bite because of the size of the M5S. But if I can hear about the electoral reform from L'Altra Europa from outside the country, so can you form inside...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2014 at 05:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw a good interview with Spinelli, a mild-mannered woman with good intentions and venerable father, but that was it, incisive unfortunately it wasn't...

Thanks for your diligence in finding hearteningly intelligent actions by the L'Altra Europa group.

They may catch a few votes from people who don't trust the MV5. They are too academic for the voters though and their web presence is negligible, social media wise.

Beppe's blog is huge, and the comments aren't stupid either. He was in the vanguard of political blogging worldwide, the Dkos of Italy, if Dkos had its own party.

Di Maio more than held his own at the live stream with Renzi on the 17th, put him in his place more than a few times, reducing him to babbling froth on others. (Mind you Renzi is an expert frothbabbler, like TB.)

What's politically embarrassing for the PD is their resistance to letting go of the Nazarene pact with B, and their ever-more obvious efforts to wangle Berlu a presidential pardon fuels a lot of anger that the Mv5 are channeling into good (imo) politics. B's megalomania just got an un-needed shot in the arm from his acquittal yesterday, so he is dipping his scummy oar in, though it's possible he's actually damaging the R's ability to cohere by not just going away somewhere where there's no TV cameras for a while.

Like Beppe with Mv5, who do better when he takes a back seat! Too short a fuse, makes funny comedy but too much -even comic- ire scares the grandma vote away.

And there's lots of voter granmas here who think he's Frank Sinatra and Francis of Assisi rolled into one...

Tsipras are just dabbling in Italy in comparison, though they have integrity and made the 4% vote, just.

They'd be better off colonising intellectuals and joining Beppe, imho. Firebrands do come in handy to get a platform off the ground.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 08:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They'd be better off colonising intellectuals and joining Beppe, imho.
I'm afraid the Farage ties will scare awy from Grillo any lefties who are not already in the M5S, and quite a few who are.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 01:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if they don't believe in The Leader then they're not worth having, are they?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 01:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
I'm afraid the Farage ties will scare away

Fear about fear.

Scary Farage, Scary Grillo!

To break the lockdown austerity mindset some risk will be inevitable.

Farage at his most unpalatably idiotic scares me a lot less than continued slo-mo shock troika doctrine.

The only thing that scares me about Grillo is when his ego blocks him from seeing when enough is enough.

It looks like you were right about linking with Farage being a poor move for MV5, since the regrettable means did not lead to an auspicious end, so far at least.

(Lady, Fat, sing).

Maybe no-one expected a cordon sanitaire either!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 03:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, scary Grillo. I didn't like it one bit when he made a fuss against decriminalizing illegal immigration. He showed the worst ugly-party populist instincts.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 04:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a long time ago and he corrected after his movement showed him a better way.

The way it should be...

Look, if you were here you'd see Beppe has backed off enormously since the elections, while his pariamentarians are steadily being true to their words, not terribly effectively because of 'La Casta' obstructionism so far, but they are not flagging in their fight. The job of 'opening up Parliament like a can of tuna' is a lot harder than one can possibly imagine from afar.

Easier pulling hundreds of full-grown boars out of a trough at feeding time with your bare hands.

Thanks again for filling in gaps in my Italian political education, as they are large and legion.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 10:38:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can certainly understand the lure of making a tactical alliance with RW loons in order to force a change in the Euro. But for it to be worth it it has to succeed, and that seems unlikely. Then there must be a careful evaluation of the consequences. If it results in a voting majority for RW loons then any fix will be fatally compromised, making the whole situation possibly worse. There are real dangers in a 'the worse, the better' philosophy. But the European status quo regarding the Euro seems little better than a crypto-fascist cabal as it is.
 

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 at 12:02:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just recently, someone posted approvingly about UKIP MEP Godfrey Bloom on one of the Podemos Facebook pages, because he told the rest of the MEPs "it won't be long before they storm this chamber and they hang you, and they'll be right". Prefaced by quoting "the great American philosopher Murray Rothbard"...

Recently melo quoted Grillo rhetoric about "opening the parliament like a can".

It so happens that Godfrey Bloom was expelled from the parliament for shouting "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer":

It so happens that Bloom said that in response to Schulz' suggestion that if the UK did not want a financial transaction tax for the EU, then the Eurozone alone could institute such a tax.

Presumably the Podemos supporters agree with the financial transaction tax... And don't get me started about the philosophy of Murray Rothbard.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 at 12:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somehow I dropped the third video in my post:

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 at 12:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From wiki:
Rothbard rejected the application of the scientific method to economics, and dismissed econometrics, empirical and statistical analysis, and other tools of mainstream social science as useless for the study of economics.[47] He instead embraced praxeology, the strictly a priori methodology of Ludwig von Mises. Praxeology conceives of economic laws as akin to geometric or mathematical axioms: fixed, unchanging, objective, and discernible through logical reasoning, without the use of any evidence.

Well, in his defense I can say that, at the least, he doesn't bother to pretend to be scientific.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 at 10:20:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And now I know from whence the loons at the Von Mises Institute came.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 at 10:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by das monde on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 at 11:21:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More Spinelli: Spinelli contro Juncker: "Dice di voler abolire Troika, ma è pro-austerità" (Il fatto quotidiano, 9 July 2014)
Jean-Claude Juncker, candidato popolare alla Presidenza della Commissione europea, è stato contestato all'incontro con il gruppo della Sinistra unita (Gue) al Parlamento europeo. Barbara Spinelli (L'Altra Europa): "Juncker è contraddittorio, da una parte è critico, vuole abolire la Troika, però dall'altra parte dice che la politica d'austerità è l'unica possibile. Vuole apparire nuovo ma in realtà perpetua le politiche che ci sono state finora". Pablo Iglesias, leader dello spagnolo Podemos, si dice preoccupato: "Juncker è stato il presidente di un paradiso fiscale come il Lussemburgo, uno strumento per fare gli interessi dei ricchi". Iglesias attacca anche i compensi ricevuti da Juncker: "15mila euro per due ore di conferenza in Germania quando nel Sud Europa il salario minimo non arriva ai 700 euro al mese" di Alessio Pisanò
This is an excerpt from the recent appearance of JC Juncker before the GUE/NGL group in the European Parliament. One of the reasons the GUE/NGL is going to be more effective as opposition than Farage/Grillo is that Juncker takes them seriously as an interlocutor. Even if there are serious disagreements and some hard opinions were voiced, the meeting remained cordial. I don't expect Juncker to pay attention to what Farage/Grillo have to say.

You can watch the entire debate with the GUE/NGL group here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/other-events/video?event=20140709-1145-SPECIAL-UNKN

By entering your email address below the plug-in you'll receive a link to download a windows media file.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 04:25:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was wondering about the Situation in Italy. Since austerity has failed and the Italian debt-load is rising instead of falling, Hans-Werner Sinn has been making the talk show tour, explaining to everybody that the problem is that Italy (and others) aren't actually really cutting spending.

I looked at the numbers of the Italian budget. I fund that it got roughly cut from 76 Billon Euro to 72 Billion Euro. But I suspect the increased amount of debt service  masks the actual cut in public spending.

do you have some number of that?

by rz on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 04:46:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Renzi is applying Troika austerity with a vengeance, new taxes a-gogo from Padoan. All Mv5 initiatives for wealth distribution rebuffed. (Renzi's big idea was a risible E80 a month 'gift' to middle sector workers).

The 'Caste' is still going strong with 90% of its bloated privilege intact.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 08:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 'Caste'
Where did that come from? Podemos uses the term in Spain.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 01:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
La Casta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
La Casta From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search
This article is an orphan, as no other articles link to it. Please introduce links to this page from related articles; try the Find links tool for suggestions. (February 2009)

La casta. Così i politici italiani sono diventati intoccabili (The Caste. How Italian politicians became untouchable) is an Italian book, written by Sergio Rizzo and Gian Antonio Stella, two journalists from the Italian national newspaper Corriere della Sera, detailing the amount of graft and corruption in italian politics. It was published in 2007, and became a bestseller.[1]



'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 02:19:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe that's where Pablo Iglesias got the term. He studied in Italy.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 04:18:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe you that austerity is going strong.

But I need numbers. Does anybody now where I find numbers for the debt service of the crisis countries?

by rz on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 02:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You should we real feel sad about Grillo? It seems to me the M5S has been a joke all along.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 at 03:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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