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by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 11:44:52 AM EST
EUobserver / Air disaster puts spotlight on French warship for Russia

BRUSSELS - France risks "international ridicule" if it delivers a warship to Russia despite the Malaysian Airlines disaster, but its intentions remain unchanged in the immediate aftermath.

The ship, a "Mistral" assault vessel which forms part of a €1.2 billion contract, is to be sent to Russia in October, with the French navy currently training Russian sailors how to use it at the port of St. Nazaire in Normandy.

The US and some EU states had already criticised the deal before the air crash because of the Ukraine crisis. But others, such as Germany, had defended France's decision to go ahead.

The new debate comes amid allegations that pro-Russia rebels in Ukraine shot down the Malaysian airliner by mistake using a Russian-supplied "Buk" missile.

The US has not mentioned the Mistral since the disaster on Thursday. But German chancellor Angela Merkel hinted at a change of heart on Friday.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:16:37 PM EST
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Excuse me?? We've suddenly developed a questioning attitude towards arms sales ?? A morality even?

When did that happen? Who knew?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 01:48:07 AM EST
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It's France, silly.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 02:46:17 AM EST
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BBC News - Gaza conflict: Clashes at Paris Pro-Palestinian protest

Pro-Palestinian protesters in France have clashed with police at a rally against Israel's action in Gaza.

Thousands took part in the protest in Paris, despite it being banned. Some threw stones and bottles at riot police, who responded with tear gas.

The ban was imposed after protesters attempted to storm two synagogues at a similar protest last week.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:17:01 PM EST
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Comment la manifestation propalestinienne a dégénéré - Libération
Dès lors, c'en était fini de toute manifestation et le XVIIIe arrondissement s'est transformé en vaste champ de bataille. Trois heures durant, une centaine de jeunes de 20-30 ans affrontèrent les CRS. Un petit groupe a même arraché le goudron d'un trottoir pour le briser en petits morceaux et le jeter sur la police. Dans les rues adjacentes, de jeunes femmes tenaient à la disposition des casseurs du sérum physiologique et du lait pour contrer les effets du gaz. Il ne fait aucun doute que certains avaient préparé leur coup.

Full report by a Libé journalist present throughout. The demonstration was peaceful till the arrival of a large group (that may have had nothing to do with support for Palestinians) that showed up to fight the police.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:54:36 PM EST
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Similar street combat last night in the Parisian suburb of Sarcelles, once a poster-child for positive inter-community relations.

A peaceful (prohibited) demonstration was followed by determined fighting by a group that showed up just for that. The local synagogue was protected by riot police.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 01:49:48 AM EST
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by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 03:02:20 AM EST
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BBC News - MH17 disaster: Standoff with militiamen at crash site

A militiaman with the nickname "Grumpy" - he was squat and barrel-chested with poor teeth and carried a machine gun - harangued me when I asked if the rebels would now stop fighting.

"You are only here because foreigners are dead," he said.

And the old story was repeated, the same story I have heard on numerous roadblocks.

The Western media were all capitalists doing the bidding of their American and EU masters.

When the OSCE turned up in a convoy led by police cars with flashing blue light "Grumpy" came into his own.

Now he was a man of power. He halted the OSCE and told them they would have to go forward on foot. A standoff followed.

The OSCE monitors went into a huddle. Yes, they would go forward on foot.

Ten minutes later "Grumpy" presented another problem.

The local experts - emergency service workers and local police - were working at the place where most of the wreckage had landed. It would not be possible to go on.

Again the OSCE huddled and the negotiations went back and forth.

And after another five minutes they were allowed to proceed once more.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:35:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ukraine rebels take bodies from crash site - Europe - Al Jazeera English

Pro-Russian separatists say they have loaded a train with 196 bodies recovered from the crash site of the Malaysian airliner shot down in eastern Ukraine.

News agencies said on Sunday no bodies remained at the crash site, a day after the AP reported rebels putting bagged bodies onto trucks and driving them away. No armed separatists were seen at the site.

Al Jazeera's Nazanine Moshiri, reporting from the Grabovo site, said observers from the European security body, the OSCE, were present at a nearby railway station where the bodies were being stored in frozen carriages.

"We are waiting to hear where the train will be heading. We understand it will be going to Ukrainian government-controlled territory," Moshiri said.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:36:09 PM EST
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Ukraine Militia Says Found MH17 Data Recorders, to Hand Them to ICAO | World | RIA Novosti

DONETSK, July 20 (RIA Novosti) - Ukrainian self-defense forces have found items that could be data recorders from the crashed Malaysian plane and delivered them to the eastern city of Donetsk, Alexander Boroday, the prime-minister of the self-proclaimed of Donetsk People's Republic, told reporters Sunday.

The militia will hand over the data recorders only to monitors from the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), not to Kiev authorities, Boroday added.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:36:57 PM EST
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Another 27 Bodies Recovered from Malaysia Jet Crash Site in Ukraine - Official | World | RIA Novosti

Volodymyr Groysman, who heads Ukraine's investigative committee in charge of the air crash probe, said the decision on whether to give the train carrying the remains of Flight MH17 passengers the green light to go to Donetsk city is still pending.

"As of now, we haven't had an opportunity to give it a go-ahead," the deputy prime minister told reporters.

Earlier reports from a RIA Novosti correspondent on the ground said the train had left Torez for Donetsk on Sunday. There were a total of 198 bodies on the train, according to monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation (OSCE) in Europe who inspected the train ahead of the departure.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:37:18 PM EST
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Militia forces to move MH17 bodies to Donetsk, concerns over intl experts' absence -- RT News
The bodies of 196 MH17 crash victims have been placed inside refrigerated train carriages, according to the leadership of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, who also wonders why international experts are still not at the crash scene.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What could be MH17 data recorders found in E. Ukraine, taken to Donetsk - militia -- RT News

Items presumed to be the data recorders from the crashed Malaysian plane have been found and delivered to Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, according to the leader of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk.

"Aircraft parts looking like black boxes were found at the site of the plane crash. They are currently in Donetsk, in the People's Republic's (DPR) government headquarters, under my personal control," Aleksandr Boroday, the republic's prime minister, told reporters.

LIVE UPDATES: Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine

The self-defense forces are ready to hand the data recorders over to international monitors "in case they arrive," he said.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:38:01 PM EST
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ITAR-TASS: World - OSCE observers say they have access to Malaysian Boeing crash site in eastern Ukraine

KIEV, July 20, ITAR-TASS. Representatives of the special mission of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in Ukraine do have access to the crash site of a Malaysian Boeing-777 in eastern Ukraine, a representative of the mission, Michael Bochurkiv, said on Sunday.

Earlier, the U.S. Department of State spokeswoman Jen Psaki expressed concern over the alleged failure of OSCE observers to reach the crash site.

Bochurkiv however said that the OSCE observers were accompanied by armed guards to the town of Torez located in the vicinity of the crash site. While in the town, they visited a railway station where there were 3-4 refrigerator railroad cars used to keep the bodies of the crash victims. He added however that due to objective reasons it was impossible to say accurately how many dead bodied had been found.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:38:40 PM EST
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MH17 crash: Kerry lays out evidence of pro-Russia separatists' responsibility | World news | theguardian.com

The US secretary of state, John Kerry, has said all the evidence surrounding the downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 points towards pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine being to blame. He spoke out as bodies of victims were moved by rebels on to trains several miles from the crash site.

Kerry appeared on all five major US Sunday talkshows to lay out the Obama administration's case against the separatists and to call on Russia to act and stop them from blocking an investigation into the firing of a surface-to-air missile that brought down the plane on Thursday, claiming 298 lives.

"We have enormous input about this that points fingers," Kerry told CNN's State of the Union. "It is pretty clear that this was a system from Russia, transferred to separatists. We know with confidence that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point of time."

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:41:07 PM EST
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Yes, yes, yes, I'm sure all of this is true. But I remember a lecture by your republican equivalent t the UN 11 years ago which made similarly convinced noises about Saddam's chemical weapons capability.

Right now, the credibility of impartial advice from the US is somewhat damaged, so how about a big cup of STFU and sit this one out, huh?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 01:53:28 AM EST
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It seems indisputable that the sepaatists have needlessly tampered with the evidence on the crash site, though.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 01:59:49 AM EST
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It's been fashionable on this site to decry the Ukranian government and bumbling EU/US diplomacy, and to admire the Russians' chess playing.

But it is a fundamental rule of nation states that you don't arm an insurgency and allow it to operate across your borders against another nation state. Either you are at war with your neighbour or you aren't. Putin is guilty of the downing of MH17, as guilty as if he had given the order himself.

If he wants to behave honourably, he should now deliver to the appropriate international instances, not only the black boxes, but the people who pushed the button.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 02:30:10 AM EST
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I thought arming insurgencies and allowing them operate against other nation states was the fundamental law of nation states. I've probably been reading the wrong history books again.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 03:04:51 AM EST
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He was never playing chess. It's just that when your opponent is playing tiddlywinks everything looks like chess.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 03:26:14 AM EST
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It's not about behaving honourably. The Ukrainian separatists are now a major liability for Putin.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 04:09:24 AM EST
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Well, exactly. Replace "behave honorably" with "recover a bit of his incalculable loss of credibility and mojo".

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 05:39:17 AM EST
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It is a fundamental rule of nation states that armed insurgencies outside your borders provide plausible deniability... until they don't.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 04:11:33 AM EST
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It's been fashionable on this site to decry the Ukranian government and bumbling EU/US diplomacy, and to admire the Russians' chess playing.

This is probably true, with me being a leading proponent of those positions. At least I was up until the pro-russian separatists started up in E Ukraine.

At which point I suggested that Putin would be tearing his hair out cos, if gaining political control over a large part of E Ukraine was an objective, it was the last thing he would want.

However, this is where tactics and strategy get in each others way. He didn't want them as it messes up his strategy but, internally, supporting the rebels plays well with significant constituencies.

But if you support them with a little planning, a few logistics and a ready supply of small arms ammo, you have a plausibly deniable insurrection. all well and good.

Supply them with large-State-military grade hardware requiring significant tactical support and, if it all goes wrong, you own it.

Whatever wargame he thought he was playing, tic-tac-toe or global thermo-nuclear warfare, it's over now.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 21st, 2014 at 09:08:55 AM EST
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