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"Of course I know R&R had an agenda."

Then you should at long least start to consider it.

"But have you actually looked at these series? They go all the way back to whatever date is possible, the 17th century in some cases."

So you do have all the information you need about the debt financed state of the 17th, 18, 19th and 20th century. And you still ignore it.

"It's doubly mistaken (as far as my choices are concerned) because the late 70s, according to Streeck's narrative, were a time when governments relied less on debt, with an increasing recourse to markets to finance expenditure in the following decades. So I see no reason not to start in 1977."

But Streeck narrative isn't, you know, true.

"As I said, if you don't like the source of these statistics, find others. This I doubt you will bother to do, because your MO is, in general, to bring loud assertions to the table without backing them up."

While your modus operandi is to make personal smears.

Do you really want to deny the simplest historical facts about the modern state and its foundation on the ability of he modern state to issue debt and mobilize the capital of its own and other national economies? Do I have to drag a history of the bond market of Amsterdam in?  

 "And this goes for your final point. You have, from the start of this thread, summarily dismissed Streeck's narrative of the neoliberal turn of the 1980s making governments more reliant on markets. "

No. I pointed out that if look at how the modern state actually financed itself, debt was always central. And nothing you said or what your neoliberal authorities said can change this central fact. So a linchpin of what Streeck said is simply wrong.  A case of (unwitting ?) acceptance of neoliberal cultural hegemony.

Don't ask "Why is Streeck accepting a neoliberal narrative?", not until you have convincingly shown that it is in fact a neoliberal narrative.  

Public debts are a central part of the neoliberal narrative. If you don't want to recognize even this...

by IM on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 05:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IM:
to make personal smears.

Watch what you say, there are examples of personal smears from you on this blog over the last 24 hours.

IM:

Public debts are a central part of the neoliberal narrative.

Explain in what way. Develop an argument. In particular, explain how saying neoliberal pressure caused governments to borrow more is, in itself, a neoliberal narrative.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 05:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 there are examples of personal smears from you on this blog over the last 24 hours.

what?

by IM on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 06:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"This I doubt you will bother to do, because your MO is, in general, to bring loud assertions to the table without backing them up."

And yes I consider that a personal attack.

by IM on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 06:03:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is an observation of your comments.

Look back over your own and find where you have gone in for much more innuendo and ad hominem. I'll help you by pointing a couple of comments out.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 07:53:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
, explain how saying neoliberal pressure caused governments to borrow more is,

That isn't in doubt. But he also claimed that borrowing more gives markets or perhaps bond markets power. Power not to influence bond prices or yields but policy. And that this power is a new power and didn't exist prior to the turn to neoliberalism.

My argument, resting on empirical and historical evidence, is that the power of the "markets" is vastly overestimated. If governments are depended on bond markets, investors are dependent on public bonds.

Is e. g. the US federal government dependent on bond markets? A government that borrows 10% of gdp in a year obviously is. And what did "Mr. Market" or the "bond market vigilantes" do with this awesome power?

Accept more and more laughable yields.

One reason is the mutual dependence. Say insurers don't have much choice.    

The other perhaps more important reason is that there is no "market" "mister market" "vigilantes". Market participants want

  1. security

  2. yields

And the end yields beat security in 9 out of ten cases.

Now, as individuals these investors and their agents are rabid neolibs, if not austrians or whatnot. But as market participants one basis point beats that all.  

by IM on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 06:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for a fuller argument. Personally, I'm not taking issue with most of it (I don't know what Streeck would say to it).

However, I'd say that a government's fear of rising yields is an important parameter in decision-making. I think both Sarkozy and Hollande blindly followed a "stay under the parapet and hang on to Angela's hand" policy because it kept French bond yields miraculously low when others were seeing punitive highs (no, I'm not personifying market forces in "vigilante" form).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 08:03:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 "I'd say that a government's fear of rising yields is an important parameter in decision-making."

"CASSIUS
Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world
Like a Colossus, and we petty men
Walk under his huge legs and peep about
To find ourselves dishonorable graves.
Men at some time are masters of their fates.
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

Yields or at least a permanent change in yields are real. "market sentiments" on the other hand....

by IM on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 09:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Worth considering that it's part of the financial-media complex.

The main sources media turn to for analysis of government finances come from the financial industries - the "bond investors."

They are not all vigilantes, but they have a very biased view of what is good...

So this is soft power of the bond vigilantes, rather than hard power... but still power...?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 25th, 2014 at 06:04:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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