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Why Scotland may now vote YES to independence | 129 comments (129 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 2)
The EU is not going to "take on" the US.  Whinge maybe.  Passively criticize, maybe. Actively oppose, hardly.

A shame, that.  A truly functional Union of European nations is perhaps the only entity in the world that could effectively oppose the US in any constructive way. That has long been my hope anyway.

Now where are we going and what's with the handbasket?

by budr on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 01:30:19 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (none / 1)
Why should the EU "take on" the US? And who is Pat Cox and why should I care?
by IM on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 01:35:49 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 2)
I meant that in general terms.  At the formation of the EU, I had hoped that it might become something like a United States of Europe, able to act collectively as a sort of political and economic counterbalance to the US and perhaps the UK as well, following similar aspirations of democracy and human rights, but acting independently.  Naive, I know, but that is what I imagined.

And I have no idea who Pat Cox is, or why we should care.

Now where are we going and what's with the handbasket?

by budr on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 01:48:38 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 2)
well yes, I hoped for more relevance of the EU, especially as a model too. But more as alternative to the US, not an opponent
by IM on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 01:54:31 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 2)
I think we're pretty much on the same page here.  I was responding to Frank's comment, and I did say "oppose constructively".  For far too long we in the US have imagined ourselves first among equals, immune to criticism.  We need strong and independent allies who aren't afraid to tell us no when it's called for.

Now where are we going and what's with the handbasket?
by budr on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 03:05:00 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (none / 0)
Err, "oppose in a constructive way".

Now where are we going and what's with the handbasket?
by budr on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 03:09:29 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 3)
An alternative to the imperial center is an opponent. In the logic of empire there can be no difference, and barely any distinction, between the two.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 03:07:09 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 4)
And how the EU leadership quakes and quails at that reality is painful to watch for some on either side of the Atlantic.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 04:46:06 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (none / 0)
"An alternative to the imperial center is an opponent."

Zero-sum thinking. Not necessarily.

by IM on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 04:52:44 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 2)
If the alternative, so-called, is unwilling or unable to actively contest power with the imperial center, simultaneously in multiple areas of social activity, then it is a subordinate rather than an alternative center of power.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 05:57:46 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (none / 1)
Nonsense. We don't live and don't have to live in a unipolar world. And another center of power is exactly that, not necessarily an opponent.
by IM on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 06:19:00 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 3)
To qualify as an alternative, the alternative has to actually differ, in some non-trivial capacity, from the imperial center. And be able and willing to defeat even reasonably assiduous attempts by the imperial center to force compliance with the imperial standard.

That makes it an opponent, no matter how many polite mouth-noises may be said to the effect that it does not.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 06:48:04 PM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (4.00 / 4)
Further, any leader who thinks that by sticking to a different position on a significant issue she won't be seen from the imperial centre as an opponent is naive and delusional.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Sep 13th, 2014 at 07:46:21 AM EST
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Re:But wait! There is more from Pat Cox (none / 0)
Pat Cox is a former President of the European Parliament, and about the only Eurocrat who has made any vaguely supportive cly, with vomments for the Yes side - and so his remarks have been seized on.

The EU is a soft power only en seriously (compared to the US) virtually no military capability - and will thus never be taken seriously by either neocons nor real-politicians.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 12th, 2014 at 04:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why Scotland may now vote YES to independence | 129 comments (129 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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