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You got there first.

Though there is this.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 08:36:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No.

Are you now surprised at my answer? I don't know what your question has to do with my post.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 08:50:53 AM EST
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What it has to do with it is that Schäuble and the German elite in general are not behaving in accordance with the ethics you suggest.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:12:29 AM EST
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Well, and my post was about the different messages that the different general publics, not the elites or finance ministers, in two nations read from bringing up that loan. I said that it is counterproductive to send such a message. It only drives people on Schäuble's side. It is not a message to Schäuble or "the elites", but not the general public.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:38:15 AM EST
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I don't think Greece can win the public debate in Germany and outside it might work better.

by generic on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:49:34 AM EST
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How do you suggest changing the behaviour of the German elite with regard to the ethics you outlined?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:59:38 AM EST
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By cutting them off from the support of the public (or rather that part of the elites. They are ot monolithic). That means, stick to a narrative of creating peace and prosperity. Reminding the public of the debt conference 1953: it is not necessary to love the Greeks in order to forgive their debt, as it wasn't necessary then, when it was German debt. All it needs is acknowledging the fact that all of us live better by writing off this debt. With the nationalistic narratives we all can only lose.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 10:08:04 AM EST
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At this stage I think your take is too optimistic. I think even mentioning the 1953 debt conference will trigger the "we are called Nazis" reaction from a large enough part of the media and the Grand Coalition to define public opinion. To give you an example where no nationalism and counter-nationalism can be involved, remember the reaction Gysi got when he compared the treatment of Greece to Versailles. I'm not entirely convinced that it's a good idea, either, but the Greek government can't fight for the objective reporting of its positions against a hostile media of a much larger country, whereas a formal suit could at least trigger serious discussion in other countries (to embolden them to isolate Merkel & Schäuble).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:07:52 AM EST
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I don't know. I actually had some very anti-Greek interlocutors pause, when I mentioned the debt agreement of '53, and asked what they thought why the other governments did that. It wasn't for love of Germany, they had not the slightest reason for that, so what was it? I may be wrong and too optimistic, but I sense that Schäuble is very slowly losing some ground in the German public, and there is serious discussion in other countries anyway. Time will tell, and until then Greece should not reverse that process, if they can help it. Surely, after waiting so long with sueing Germany for that loan, they can now wait a few months longer?

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:33:50 AM EST
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The problem for Greece is that, just now, the long, bogus, conservative German elite framing of this issue is rolling towards smothering the life out of Greece, which has led the Greek people to support drastic measures to counter this effort. The existing framing has the effect of dehumanizing and demonizing the Greeks as feckless, lazy foreigners who are taking advantage of the virtuous sacrifices of the German people who deserve to be treated harshly. This is not the first time this has happened, either in Germany or other countries. Blacks and Native Americans have been treated in the same way by the dominant white culture in the USA - slavery for the one, genocide for the other.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 12:30:25 AM EST
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Sigh. I know I am repeating myself, but then so are you. Even if we want to see this as an attempt at slavery or genocide (your choice of words), I insist on seeing it as the ruling class enslaving and murdering the poor, and choosing the weakest link in the (Euro-)chain to start with.

Your approach favours jingoistic responses (even if that is not your intention), mine favours class-centred politics.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 06:46:54 AM EST
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What is this "class" you speak of? There is only national self-interest!

Hayek has won. Welcome to freedom.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 07:24:19 AM EST
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Freedom, the road to serfdom.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 07:58:46 AM EST
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I don't think the whole question of the war loan is brought up in terms of public relations, but in terms of negotiation. The idea that Greece outside the eurozone will still owe Europe a ton is constantly bandied about. The war loan is a counter to that idea. This is its main purpose.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:38:52 AM EST
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If it is not even public relation stunt - a idiotic one, by the way -
it is even more nutty.

And it won't help you with debt hold by the ECB or the EFSF anyway.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:07:51 PM EST
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From the distant American shores where I view this crisis, there is a whole lot of nuttiness.

Given my interactions here today, I am quite frankly stunned that some of the basics of the Greek debt problem are not known in Germany. For instance, how Greece entered the euro. And, whether Greece has really been in default over the years.

Now, I have yet another revelation. That the conversion of Greek loans in 2012 is not understood either.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:26:47 PM EST
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What the hell are you talking about? Your theory how the conversion happened is rather weird. And I haven't said anything about how greece entered the euro (quite irrelevant now anyway) or where and when Greece was in default (even more irrelevant).

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:41:11 PM EST
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Did you not state below in reply to a question about Germany's haircut in 1953 that Greece also received a haircut?

You did.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:44:06 PM EST
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Yes I did. And that is exactly true. So?

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:51:23 PM EST
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I'm done going round in round in circles. You just asked me how my point about conversion is relevant. Take it away. I'm done.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 01:07:28 PM EST
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You haven't got a point, you know.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 01:13:13 PM EST
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Not one you would acknowledge, at any rate.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 12:32:46 AM EST
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No, there is there there.

by IM on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 06:16:32 AM EST
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"whereas a formal suit could at least trigger serious discussion in other countries "

Yes other countries will be happy to relitigate world war two. A slpendid idea.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:28:34 PM EST
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Migeru already made this point but it's not getting through.

Take the war and morality completely out of it.

Germany was loaned an amount of money from Greece back in 1942.

Whatever was happening at the time is irrelevant.

The money taken was quantifiable.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:31:27 PM EST
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"Whatever was happening at the time is irrelevant."

Nice. statute of limitation, then.

"Migeru already made this point but it's not getting through."

What point?

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:37:13 PM EST
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Migeru: The loan is quantifiable.

When you say there is a statute of limitations on loans, do you believe international law on this matter agrees with you?

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:42:59 PM EST
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I don't know how they deal with statute of limitations in international law.

There should be ways. Closure is important in law.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:54:19 PM EST
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One of the Dutch Deputy Finance Ministers recently observed that Holland was finally repaid for a loan made to Indonesia in the 1930s.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 01:08:29 PM EST
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Migeru: The loan is quantifiable.

Even that we can argue about. There quite different numbers thrown around. propably depending on the interest rate calculation.

But I don't that matters. That is not the point herew and you know it.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:56:41 PM EST
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I think people were perfectly willing to forgive and forget until this crisis. There is a lot of moralizing on both sides. And the Greeks take umbrage whenever the German media cast aspersions on Greek character. That is galling to most Greeks, coming from Germany. I think Schauble is the one who gives license.

Take for instance the constantly repeated mantra in Germany about Greece's history as a defaulter. It boggles the brain to imagine such renditions about Greek economic history, while simultaneously there is the constant refrain about not bringing up the German past. Either pasts are relevant or they are not.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:11:11 AM EST
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"Forgive and forget" is not what I advocate. I have no issue with bearing the past in mind either. I warn against rhetoric that pitches nations against each other, and for that it is completely irrelevant that the Greeks did not start the nationalist blabber. Which European narrative do you want to connect to?

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:34:52 AM EST
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I think the European narrative is actually over in Greece. They are back to what Papandreou used to say, "We are a Balkan nation." And that explicitly meant outside Europe.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:41:02 AM EST
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I think there wouldn't have been a wide positive reaction to staying in the Euro if the sentiment you see would be a majority one.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:11:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Even during the midst of the negotiations, I was reading a big turnabout on the euro.

Geithner's comments about the intention to punish Greece all along has now become common wisdom in Greece.

Paul mason spoke to the moderates in Syriza over the weekend who said that they were dead wrong about the possibility of keeping Greece in the euro.

I think Varoufakis is likely to the very fringe of his party in terms of his sense that Greece needs to stay in the euro, and if you read Varoufakis's writing on currency conversion for other countries (i.e. Scotland or Argentina) then you know he actually has a withering view of Europe.

I am entirely convinced that the body politic in Greece (outside To Potami, the tatters of Pasok, and ND) is now ready for exiting the euro. And I think the people are there too.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:26:21 AM EST
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None of which addresses the positive public reaction.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:29:28 AM EST
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any move out of the euro requires a lot of finessing of public opinions.

It was very important for Syriza to be seen as absolutely against Grexit.

The idea has to be established in the public minds that, when it happens, the govt did everything it could do. The general sense that I got from Greek voters (who formerly supported ND or PASOK or were now in To Potami's camp) was that they believed Varoufakis and Tsipras wanted out of the euro.

These sensibilities have to be managed. They don't change instantly.

Not to mention the fact that Greeks for the first time saw their politicians as fighting for them, which actually does address the gov'ts popularity.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:50:17 AM EST
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http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-greece-bailout-20150223-story.html

By the way, here is an article in the AFP (LA Times) that shows Greek public opinion over the weekend:

Nevertheless, Tsipras' popularity continues to soar, according to recent polls.
Weekend polls found that more than 80% of respondents said they were supportive of the negotiating stance, while 86% said they felt his leadership had inspired a new sense of national pride.
A separate poll found that Tsipras' popularity rating had risen by 42 percentage points in a month, reaching 87%, the highest of any Greek politician since the restoration of democracy in 1974.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:47:40 PM EST
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Funny I have read a lot of press reporst how he is in hot water with Syriza (and Anel).

Seems to be a tad superficial, the damage.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In other words, Tsipras won over the overwhelming majority of public opinion by making them feel that he is with them in wanting Greece as part of Europe, the EU and the Euro; at the expense of distress among the party faithful, some of whom may feel that the European narrative is over and "We are a Balkan nation" applies again.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 02:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Greeks are changing their view.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 07:14:18 PM EST
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I had no problem understanding your perspective, though I disagree only to the extent that I find it intolerable that German conservatives, especially those from the south, still complain about references to what those they strongly supported in the '30s did and that it left such a mark on German history. I do this because my real concern is that I see the social and psychological attitudes and political beliefs involved then still acting today in analogous ways. I have the same concern for all of the US conservatives who supported Hitler, to the extent of cooperating with him in the rearming of Germany right up until their holdings were (temporarily) confiscated during WW II, after they had transferred vital technologies to Germany - Standard Oil, DuPont, Firestone, Ford, IBM, etc., not to mention Harriman-Brown law firm It is a serious concern that they were and are not now held accountable. Individuals involved included Pierre DuPont, Henry Ford (Iron Cross by Hitler), Prescott Bush, both Dulles brothers, Joe Kennedy, etc. And these same people are now supporting the current, post modern imperial security state in the USA.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:58:14 AM EST
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Yes. I can only remind you that I am not particularly conservative, but that I too flap my ears at all demands to hold me responsible for what my grandparents did, or anything resembling such demands. People who want to reach the German public, or at least who don't want to alienate it, should avoid this minefield. You can either have a narrative that pitches nations against each other or a narrative that holds conservatives responsible, but not both.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 10:25:58 AM EST
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That's a fair point, in the same sense and to the same extent that it is a fair point that you will not change Israeli public opinion by bringing up the 1948 ethnic cleansing.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 02:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that is a fair point, and as long as Greece remains in the eurozone winning the German public for the spirit of '53 should be the goal.

However, if Greece is kicked out of the eurozone and Germany insist on being repaid and uses the legal structure of the EU to try to collect, then I think bringing up legal claims against Germany might be necessary in order to remain in the EU.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 05:09:18 AM EST
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Agreed. In that case the political climate would be poisoned anyway.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 06:52:49 AM EST
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