Did Schäuble win? | 258 comments (258 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

No.

Are you now surprised at my answer? I don't know what your question has to do with my post.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 08:50:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What it has to do with it is that Schäuble and the German elite in general are not behaving in accordance with the ethics you suggest.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:12:29 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

Well, and my post was about the different messages that the different general publics, not the elites or finance ministers, in two nations read from bringing up that loan. I said that it is counterproductive to send such a message. It only drives people on Schäuble's side. It is not a message to Schäuble or "the elites", but not the general public.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:38:15 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 1)

I don't think Greece can win the public debate in Germany and outside it might work better.

by generic on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:49:34 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

How do you suggest changing the behaviour of the German elite with regard to the ethics you outlined?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 09:59:38 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (4.00 / 4)

By cutting them off from the support of the public (or rather that part of the elites. They are ot monolithic). That means, stick to a narrative of creating peace and prosperity. Reminding the public of the debt conference 1953: it is not necessary to love the Greeks in order to forgive their debt, as it wasn't necessary then, when it was German debt. All it needs is acknowledging the fact that all of us live better by writing off this debt. With the nationalistic narratives we all can only lose.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 10:08:04 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (4.00 / 4)

At this stage I think your take is too optimistic. I think even mentioning the 1953 debt conference will trigger the "we are called Nazis" reaction from a large enough part of the media and the Grand Coalition to define public opinion. To give you an example where no nationalism and counter-nationalism can be involved, remember the reaction Gysi got when he compared the treatment of Greece to Versailles. I'm not entirely convinced that it's a good idea, either, but the Greek government can't fight for the objective reporting of its positions against a hostile media of a much larger country, whereas a formal suit could at least trigger serious discussion in other countries (to embolden them to isolate Merkel & Schäuble).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:07:52 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (4.00 / 2)

I don't know. I actually had some very anti-Greek interlocutors pause, when I mentioned the debt agreement of '53, and asked what they thought why the other governments did that. It wasn't for love of Germany, they had not the slightest reason for that, so what was it? I may be wrong and too optimistic, but I sense that Schäuble is very slowly losing some ground in the German public, and there is serious discussion in other countries anyway. Time will tell, and until then Greece should not reverse that process, if they can help it. Surely, after waiting so long with sueing Germany for that loan, they can now wait a few months longer?

by Katrin on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:33:50 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (4.00 / 2)

The problem for Greece is that, just now, the long, bogus, conservative German elite framing of this issue is rolling towards smothering the life out of Greece, which has led the Greek people to support drastic measures to counter this effort. The existing framing has the effect of dehumanizing and demonizing the Greeks as feckless, lazy foreigners who are taking advantage of the virtuous sacrifices of the German people who deserve to be treated harshly. This is not the first time this has happened, either in Germany or other countries. Blacks and Native Americans have been treated in the same way by the dominant white culture in the USA - slavery for the one, genocide for the other.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 12:30:25 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (4.00 / 2)

Sigh. I know I am repeating myself, but then so are you. Even if we want to see this as an attempt at slavery or genocide (your choice of words), I insist on seeing it as the ruling class enslaving and murdering the poor, and choosing the weakest link in the (Euro-)chain to start with.

Your approach favours jingoistic responses (even if that is not your intention), mine favours class-centred politics.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 06:46:54 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

What is this "class" you speak of? There is only national self-interest!

Hayek has won. Welcome to freedom.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 07:24:19 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

Freedom, the road to serfdom.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 07:58:46 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (4.00 / 2)

I don't think the whole question of the war loan is brought up in terms of public relations, but in terms of negotiation. The idea that Greece outside the eurozone will still owe Europe a ton is constantly bandied about. The war loan is a counter to that idea. This is its main purpose.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 11:38:52 AM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

If it is not even public relation stunt - a idiotic one, by the way -
it is even more nutty.

And it won't help you with debt hold by the ECB or the EFSF anyway.

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:07:51 PM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 1)

From the distant American shores where I view this crisis, there is a whole lot of nuttiness.

Given my interactions here today, I am quite frankly stunned that some of the basics of the Greek debt problem are not known in Germany. For instance, how Greece entered the euro. And, whether Greece has really been in default over the years.

Now, I have yet another revelation. That the conversion of Greek loans in 2012 is not understood either.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:26:47 PM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

What the hell are you talking about? Your theory how the conversion happened is rather weird. And I haven't said anything about how greece entered the euro (quite irrelevant now anyway) or where and when Greece was in default (even more irrelevant).

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:41:11 PM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 1)

Did you not state below in reply to a question about Germany's haircut in 1953 that Greece also received a haircut?

You did.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:44:06 PM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

Yes I did. And that is exactly true. So?

by IM on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:51:23 PM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)

I'm done going round in round in circles. You just asked me how my point about conversion is relevant. Take it away. I'm done.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 01:07:28 PM EST
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Re: Did Schäuble win? (none / 0)